Not arguing but just curious. I didn’t think natural gas plants heavily affected air quality. I’m aware that fracking has its share of issues, notably ground water contamination. I always thought coal plants were the ones with emissions issues.
I mean yeah but is it burning in such a way it’s actually impacting people’s wellbeing? Is it creating that much atmospheric pollution even with waste fume scrubbers? I cook with natural gas and it doesn’t leave soot. I’m not sure where you are but anywhere I’ve been lighters use butane and not natural gas. I’m not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get an accurate picture of the situation.
Perfectly combusted butane only releases CO2 and water, too. The point of that experiment is showing nothing burns perfectly. Even 100% pure methane burning at 100% efficiency releases CO2, which has measurable toxicity in humans.
That being said, largery hydrocarbons will generally burn less perfectly then smaller ones. Methane has 1 carbon. Butane has four. Gasoline has 8-10, lower grade fuels have more, tars get to 20-30. Coal is a mixture of tars and hydrocarbons with even longer carbon chains.
So natural gas powerplants with sufficient exhaust scrubbers are having a substantial effect on atmospheric pollutants? I feel like we keep getting off of the main question here. Like to stoves and lighters and such. I get nothing burns perfectly clean but seems like just an engineering hurtle to me. With natural gas I’m typically more concerned about the hydro fracking aspect. There’s really not a solution to groundwater contamination in fracking beyond them saying it didn’t happen.
Well, I think we could easily start by synthesizing high purity methane. As long as you do it very slow and in small amounts, you can at least get rid of hereroatoms. After that, we could have several stages of carb/exhaust loops to ensure complete combustion. Of course, you’re going to need to heat the last few stages.
Then you just spent 10x the energy you’ll get from the natural gas just making it clean. Checkmate, liberals.
I feel like there’s a reasonable optimization. Everything has an environmental cost, even the production of green energy infrastructure. I think we can reasonably compare and contrast the probable lifetime impact of an energy source, including decommission and possible recycling. That is nothing is perfect but it’s about what’s the best we can manage given what the market can financially support.
Natural gas still causes pollution, just less than coal.
I grew up with natural gas, and if you didn’t turn on the hood it would get nasty inside. It also made our pots and pans turn black during long cooking sessions.
A 2024 study from Stanford and PSE Healthy Energy scientists estimates the annual societal cost of NO2 exposure from gas and propane stoves is $1 billion. Burning natural gas and propane has also been shown to generate benzene, a known human carcinogen. A 2023 study from Stanford and PSE Healthy Energy scientists found that a single gas cooktop burner on high could raise indoor levels of benzene above those in secondhand tobacco smoke.
And that’s just from indoor stoves.
The primary component of natural gas is methane. Methane is a colorless, odorless, and highly combustible gas. It is also a powerful climate pollutant. In addition to methane, natural gas contains pollutants which are known to be toxic, linked to cancer, and can form secondary health-damaging pollutants that may impact air quality and human health.
That was part of the natural gas grift: because it’s slightly better than coal, and it has natural in the name, it must be clean! It fooled a lot of people, unfortunately and understandably.
I mean yeah if you displace air (nitrogen and oxygen) with anything you’re going to have a bad time, but I didn’t think natural gas plants were straight up leaking valuable natural gas everywhere like a home stove or gas heater can. The black soot is interesting, must mean the natural gas source was tainted because as far as I know pure natural gas burns totally clean. Just to check, we were speaking about natural gas plants for energy generation right?
Not arguing but just curious. I didn’t think natural gas plants heavily affected air quality. I’m aware that fracking has its share of issues, notably ground water contamination. I always thought coal plants were the ones with emissions issues.
Gas burns cleaner than coal, but almost nothing burns 100% clean. Nor is any fuel source 100% pure.
Hold a lighter up to some tinfoil. See the soot?
I mean yeah but is it burning in such a way it’s actually impacting people’s wellbeing? Is it creating that much atmospheric pollution even with waste fume scrubbers? I cook with natural gas and it doesn’t leave soot. I’m not sure where you are but anywhere I’ve been lighters use butane and not natural gas. I’m not trying to be a jerk, just trying to get an accurate picture of the situation.
Perfectly combusted butane only releases CO2 and water, too. The point of that experiment is showing nothing burns perfectly. Even 100% pure methane burning at 100% efficiency releases CO2, which has measurable toxicity in humans.
That being said, largery hydrocarbons will generally burn less perfectly then smaller ones. Methane has 1 carbon. Butane has four. Gasoline has 8-10, lower grade fuels have more, tars get to 20-30. Coal is a mixture of tars and hydrocarbons with even longer carbon chains.
So natural gas powerplants with sufficient exhaust scrubbers are having a substantial effect on atmospheric pollutants? I feel like we keep getting off of the main question here. Like to stoves and lighters and such. I get nothing burns perfectly clean but seems like just an engineering hurtle to me. With natural gas I’m typically more concerned about the hydro fracking aspect. There’s really not a solution to groundwater contamination in fracking beyond them saying it didn’t happen.
Yeah. Of course, the phrase “sufficient exhaust scrubbers” is about as reasonable as “100% perfect combustion” in this context. Engineering or no.
So it’s physically impossible or just beyond our current level of technological ability?
Well, I think we could easily start by synthesizing high purity methane. As long as you do it very slow and in small amounts, you can at least get rid of hereroatoms. After that, we could have several stages of carb/exhaust loops to ensure complete combustion. Of course, you’re going to need to heat the last few stages.
Then you just spent 10x the energy you’ll get from the natural gas just making it clean. Checkmate, liberals.
I feel like there’s a reasonable optimization. Everything has an environmental cost, even the production of green energy infrastructure. I think we can reasonably compare and contrast the probable lifetime impact of an energy source, including decommission and possible recycling. That is nothing is perfect but it’s about what’s the best we can manage given what the market can financially support.
Natural gas still causes pollution, just less than coal.
I grew up with natural gas, and if you didn’t turn on the hood it would get nasty inside. It also made our pots and pans turn black during long cooking sessions.
Here’s more info: https://www.psehealthyenergy.org/gas-stoves-and-indoor-air-pollution-explained/
And that’s just from indoor stoves.
That was part of the natural gas grift: because it’s slightly better than coal, and it has natural in the name, it must be clean! It fooled a lot of people, unfortunately and understandably.
I mean yeah if you displace air (nitrogen and oxygen) with anything you’re going to have a bad time, but I didn’t think natural gas plants were straight up leaking valuable natural gas everywhere like a home stove or gas heater can. The black soot is interesting, must mean the natural gas source was tainted because as far as I know pure natural gas burns totally clean. Just to check, we were speaking about natural gas plants for energy generation right?