Foundation is the best sci-fi I’ve watched and I’ve seen a lot. The way they adapted it from Asimov’s books is so well done, just enough changes to modernise is and keep people who read the books guessing.
Season 2 is a bit weak but 3 was great and the scope for future seasons is huge.
You argue that philosophy is like maths because it is rigorous, uses logic, and isn’t empirical science. However, mathematics operates on universally agreed upon axioms. Because the axioms are agreed upon, the proofs are definitive. In philosophy, the axioms are exactly what is being debated so it isn’t as rigorous.
Formal logic only guarantees that if the premises are true, the conclusion logically follows, it doesn’t guarantee that the premises are actually true in reality.
I don’t know why you keep citing “pattern matching” here, it’s the wrong term to use. My complaint that “Anyone can claim anything which can’t be proved” is a complaint about soundness. You can use flawless first-order logic to mathematically manipulate absolute nonsense, but it doesn’t make the conclusion sound.
It is a mistake to treat materialism as a scientific theory… it is a background assumption of science.
I’m not doing that, I’m just citing more evidence for it being the case and employing Occam’s Razor.
If we look at the cosmological timeline, the universe existed for billions of years before biological organisms evolved. If reality requires the “collective perception of many agents” to exist, how did the universe exist before agents evolved to perceive it? You fail to explain how non-physical “agents” can exist prior to the physical organisms they supposedly conjure into reality.
The rock would exist because the crowd is there to have that perception or the potential for that perception.
If a rock exists in the dark on an uninhabited planet purely because it has the potential to be perceived if someone were there, then the rock possesses objective, independent existence outside of any actual observer’s mind. This directly contradicts your earlier premise that experience/perception must come first.
I am not stretching the definition… In idealism, consciousness and all of your other definitions are left intact, except the order of operations is reversed like this.
This is literally changing the definition. In biology and common parlance, consciousness is defined as an emergent property or function of a biological brain. By redefining it as an independent, pre-existing, reality-generating force that creates biology, you have entirely changed the ontological nature of the word.
I appreciate philosophy has value, helps us form hypotheses and that we all hold unquestioned background assumptions but I’m afraid you’re not going to be able to convince me of idealism without strong evidence. This argument has been going on for centuries with no resolution so we might as well agree to disagree. At the end of the day, it’s empirical science vs. untestable speculation.
This is I think where the fundamental disagreement lies. Bsit was making a philosophical claim, so the apparatus of science doesn’t really work here. We can’t really prove or disprove the idea using experiments, we can only discuss how coherent the idea is. In this sense philosophy is more like math than science.
And this is why I mentioned it feels like a waste of time. Anyone can claim anything which can’t be proved or disproved so what’s the point in discussing it? I could come up with any old nonsense about the origins of the universe as many religions have done in the past and we could argue for centuries about it getting nowhere.
Consciousness is like a giant container that contains everything else within it. Consciousness is like a canvas, and the material world is like the paint on that canvas. We construct stories about how the changes in the brain cause changes in consciousness, and those stories are true (there are clear correlations here), but they themselves are happening on the canvas.
So I addressed this in an admittedly rather tongue-in-cheek way with my universe-is-a-brain comment. You are stretching the definition consciousness to mean the universe itself, widening an already poorly defined concept in order to fit the idealist theory.
When most people say “consciousness,” they mean the subjective inner experience of a biological organism which simply doesn’t fit your definition.
If we replace the term “consciousness” with “the universe” in bsit’s very first sentence it makes a lot more sense, but it’s also not controversial in the slightest: “The universe is fundamental to reality.”
Well this is a shame as we seemed to be in agreement on the comment thread above. I didn’t even pick you up of the fact that none of the papers you linked were evidence for panpsychism, just exploring where consciousness is located in the brain and potential mathematical frameworks for it.
bsit wasn’t making coherent arguments, they were putting out unfalsifiable theories and then linking things like the Hard Problem of Consciousness which doesn’t support their point, it’s just an ongoing problem yet to be explained by science. You mentioned yourself that one possible way to do this would be via further research into IIT.
I see no paths to evidence for idealism myself and asked for some but received none. So yes, I’m afraid I will dismiss a theory which doesn’t make any predictions and can’t be proved/disproved. Doubly so if the advocate starts comparing my scientific understanding to the Bible then starts abusing logical fallacies.
To address your extremely charitable interpretation… What does matter being an interpretation of consciousness even mean to you? To me it would mean that we are some kind of Boltzmann brain imagining the universe into existence. If that’s the the case then it’s basically solipsism which bsit flat out rejected multiple times.
I didn’t use the word anti-intellectual but if we can’t agree on definitions and the fundamental axioms of a shared reality then we really are in Cloud Cuckoo Land.
Agreed, we can’t even rigorously define consciousness, so to claim it’s the only thing that exists is a stretch too far for me.
Panpsychism is interesting but gonna need a lot more evidence including an explanation of the Combination Problem before I’m convinced.
Evidence for IIT, which we don’t have, does not prove idealism and the person you are defending is arguing for idealism.
The things you posit are falsifiable, the claims they have been putting forward are not. Hence my initial questions surrounding panpsychism to them before they started trying to use logical fallacies against a mainstream scientific position.
Well I described it as best I could but to be frank their position was pretty incoherent and changed over the course of the thread in an attempt to avoid scrutiny.
Are we on the same page now?
If you treat the claim as an axiom, say so explicitly and accept it as metaphysics; otherwise, provide one concrete empirical or explanatory consequence that would favor idealism over materialism and define which sense of exist you mean (phenomenal vs. ontological).
I really don’t see why I’m the one that’s been asked to explain this quackery, my standpoint is the default scientific position.
From what I can tell it’s just poorly worded idealism. They think consciousness can exist without matter (or worse consciousness somehow creates matter) with no proof or reasoning, then just repeating “Prove me wrong.” without addressing any of my counter points.
There are fringe ideas in this space that do merit some thought as other have suggested such as panpsychism and IIT but that is not what this person is floating.
Burden‑of‑proof reversal
“Burden-of-proof reversal: You demand I prove consciousness is fundamental while assuming matter is - without proving matter exists outside consciousness.”
This restates the original burden shift as a defense: asserting your opponent must prove matter’s independence does not remove your obligation to support your positive claim that consciousness is fundamental.
Begging the question / Circular reasoning
“Begging the question: Claiming ‘rocks existed before brains’ assumes a materialist timeline, which is the premise in dispute. Your “evidence” is just experience within consciousness.”
Treating the disputed premise (that rocks predate minds in an ontologically independent way) as if it were already established is using the conclusion as a premise.
False analogy / Irrelevant comparison
“False analogy: You dismiss idealism as “unfalsifiable woo,” but your own materialist assumptions are equally unfalsifiable.”
Equating the epistemic status of two different positions without showing they are actually comparable in testability or explanatory power is an unsupported analogy.
Tu quoque / Defensive turn
“I’m not reversing the burden; I’m exposing the symmetry: neither of us can prove our starting point without circularity.”
Responding to a charge by claiming the accuser does the same (tu quoque) avoids addressing whether your own move meets evidentiary standards.
Begging the question (repeated)
“But I can point to the fact that to say anything about the world, you need consciousness first.”
Presenting that claim as a settled fact without argument assumes the very point under dispute.
Equivocation
“I’m not begging the question; I’m asking you to justify your assumption that matter is independent of observation.”
The terms independent, observation, and exist are used in shifting senses across the response (epistemic vs ontological), which blurs the argument and makes the charge less precise.
Appeal to ignorance / Appeal to unfalsifiability
“False analogy: … your own materialist assumptions are equally unfalsifiable.”
Treating the absence of a decisive disproof as evidence that two positions are equally warranted is an appeal to ignorance unless you demonstrate comparable evidentiary status.
Rhetorical trap / Straw‑man implication
“My analogy isn’t false, it’s precise: You’re demanding I disprove your framework using your framework. That’s not logic; it’s a trap.”
Labeling the opponent’s method a “trap” without showing how their specific move misapplies logic risks mischaracterizing their argument rather than refuting it.
Special pleading (implicit)
“I’m not reversing the burden; I’m exposing the symmetry…” and the overall tone of insisting your standard is the correct one.
Claiming your position is exempt from the usual requirement to provide independent support while insisting others must disprove theirs functions like special pleading.
You clearly don’t even know what a logical fallacy is as your posts are full of them.
You’re asserting consciousness is ontologically prior, so the burden of proof lies with you; however your posts commit several errors: burden‑of‑proof reversal, begging the question / circular reasoning, equivocation (private perception vs intersubjective measurement), category error (treating epistemology as ontology), special pleading / unfalsifiability, straw man of scientific practice, and a false analogy to scripture.
One day maybe you will understand rationality, evidence and the scientific method but until then enjoy your woo-woo.
For your position to make any kind of sense it requires thinking we are part of one shared consciousness that is the universe. There is no evidence for that and worse, it’s unfalsifiable, so just a personal belief.
I got tired of arguing with religious people long ago so I’ll leave you to continue contemplating idealist nonsense which will never help us understand the universe any more than using the term “god” to explain everything.
So you are now just arguing for solipsism which tells us nothing about the universe and is unfalsifiable. Science is what we can agree on as a shared reality, not whatever comes into your head or what someone random wrote down. It’s not dogma, it’s verifiable and if there was enough to evidence to the contrary I’d consider changing my mind.
I don’t think you’re saying anything new, quite the opposite, I’m just saying everything you believe is nonsense as are the scriptures you and other “philosophers” (spiritualists) have been wasting your time on for centuries.
🙌 O’ mighty Unk-Amun, may you forever bestow double burgers alongside our Runath. 🙌
“Prove it”
That’s not how science works either. Nothing is 100% proved but we have enough evidence to suggest it is way more likely than your theory:
You could speculate about anything but without evidence you’re just making up your own form of religion mixed with solipsism.
I think the real controversial opinion here is that a good social fabric is possible.
No that’s not how science works, there is no evidence that consciousness existed before matter whereas there is plenty that matter existed before consciousness. Your extraordinary claim that it does requires evidence which you haven’t provided.
If you were to provide anything tangible to go on rather than reiterating your point I might consider it further. If not it’s actually yourself pursuing unfounded idealist theories.
It’s not novel to me, I’ve heard other spiritualists spout similar nonsense many times before.
Universe-is-a-brain theory, got it.
Trouble is the burden of proof lies with you on that.
Westworld was my #1 for so many years until Foundation pipped it.
I actually find it difficult to recommend it anymore because of how complex the plot got in later seasons. You need to be very familiar with every sci-fi concept to even stand a chance of keeping up with what’s going on.