when the shitty government started the brutal invasion to Ukraine

What should a state do when the most prolific invader in the world starts amassing troops and weapons on its border, especially after conducting a coup against a neighbouring state?

Well, NATO self-admittedly pushed for the war, so that’s whom you should be directing your ire against.

I envy you if you have seriously never seen liberals say that both NATO and welfare are good.

Unable to dedicate enough time to dissect particular examples, but, for example, places like lemmy.world are full of liberals who will tell you that NATO should keep going and maintain colonial subjugation of the Global South, but to provide its own people with better welfare.

I will be able to provide more examples later if that’s not enough.

It decreases overall

Yeah, so it is not true at least in the case of the USian shutzstaffel, contrary to the original claim.

If “respond to the draft or get arrested” is your interpretation of choice

The US isn’t doing a forced draft. These monsters sign up voluntarily.

Put it this way: military recruitment is almost always inversely proportional to the economic wellbeing.

At least In the US, that is very much not true. The poor are actually underrepresented in the USian military. It is the well-of quantiles in the middle that are overrepresented.

Also, no, you are not forced to join the USian military.

You hear a lot of NATO liberals saying that the plunder from Africa, Asia, and elsewhere should go to welfare. This even happens on these sites.

You have to be living under a rock to not hear liberals day exactly that.

What would make you hate a force for decolonization and workers’ rights?

If you can sign up for kidnapping, torturing and murdering people in the Global South for the Epstein empire, you can find a different job.

Also, did they suddenly forget what their military does? And also failed to think of the people on the receiving end of what this military does? How is this in any way an excuse?

Most of the German military had nothing to do with the atrocities committed during the war

Holy hell, a clean wehrmachter in the wild in 2026.

It’s pretty silly to claim that most of the German military had nothing to do with, for example, the Lebensraum, which included such things as the invasion of the USSR.

I don’t think you know what everyone or really what most people in a modern military do.

Do you claim that your military was not involved in the invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iran, Palestine, as well as many other places? Or do you concede that I do, in fact, know what your military has been doing?

Anything I would sabotage that would satisfy you would kill a few hundred and affect hundreds of thousands due to nuclear fallout.

So, you couldn’t even openly refuse to follow orders from a military that is engaged in a genocide? You couldn’t leak any information to your empire’s victims? You couldn’t assault your officers or other thugs? Nothing?

You are saying this as if combat is the only bad thing your empire does, as if colonial subjugation, kidnapping, torture, and the like are not, and as of things like military logistics are not done in service of those goals.

A combo of lifting equipment without proper gear because the military wants you to do things now rather than take longer to get personal safety equipment and mental health from working in one of the most stressful fields in the US military.

Hope you regret joining the genocidaire gang.

Like I said, the majority of my 5000 coworkers and I never saw an enemy combatant except maybe the pilots.

You are saying that as if combat is the only bad thing your empire does.
Notably, an Abu Ghraib torturer didn’t have to see any combatants, either.

So, were you paid to do nothing, or were you paid to contribute to the most vile military in the world? In the latter case, did you engage in sabotage against your military, or did you do what the military estimated would be the best for it that you do?

I am already doing more than you by not signing up to torture children in the Global South

By that same logic, however, pretty much everyone in capitalist societies are also contributing to the “subjugation of non-white people.”

Nowhere near to the same degree, however. Your attempts to equate these things is extention silly.

I’m failing to see how the military is somehow directly responsible for the person I was originally responding to living under a capitalist system whereas they are not.

Do you also fail to see how the USian soldiers are responsible for, for example, the tortures at Abu Ghraib? I guess you don’t see that as any different from being a cashier in the US in terms of awfulness.

Mind you, non-capitalist communities have firefighting and even militaries. Neither occupation is inherently capitalistic.

However, non-capitalist societies of today are not responsible for the colonial subjugation of the Global South. Not sure why you are ripping them into this.

Regarding the healthcare industry in the US, it’s a profit-seeking venture. Anyone who participates in it voluntarily (e.g., doing software engineering for healthcare companies) is directly involved in one of America’s most backwards sectors of the economy.

Ok? Do they do anything comparable to bombing schoolchildren in Iran? What would be the good outcome of none of those people participating in the USian healthcare system?

Why would I have to attack the meat producers first?

The fact that you blame consumers of meat and the like - and not the producers, i.e. the people actually doing the bad thing - for the production of meat and similar things is also very silly.

Also, do you agree that the rest of the world has a moral right to kill NATO’s ss troopers, or do you think it would be great if I kidnapped, tortured and killed your family for money?

For the average person in either role, both are just a job.

We are not talking about their own perception of what they do.

You just happen to prefer one to another, personally.

What is word is that you do not prefer cooking meals for schoolchildren to making sure NATO’s occasions, genocides and the like are completed.

Unless, of course, you somehow think it isn’t fascist for the state to decide the curriculum that every child is forced to learn, segregate children based on age, …

Ah yes, education. What horror. Very comparable to killing children overseas. /s

and coerce them into obeying the whims of whatever state employee happens to be their teacher.

Obeying their whims, rather than actual instructions - yes. And such teachers are, indeed, bad and should be punished. Do you think otherwise?

Consumption of products is the furthest one can be from participation in such things in many cases, or not far off.
Unlike working in a NATO military.

Honestly ridiculous how you try to equate these things.

What is the line that you are looking for exactly to label someone “poor”?

Let’s say, the lowest 25-30% quantiles by income.
Actually, do also consider the stats for the lowest 20% quantile specifically.

I shared with you lived experience

And somebody else can share lives experiences of soldiers from very privileged backgrounds like Platner.

the icing on the cake is just stay in prison.

I mean, now that they have participated in the genocidal military, they for sure should be in prison, or worse. Then being in prison initially might not have been just, but wouldn’t be worse for them, would it?

No one I served with was given proper informed consent on what they were actually signing up for.

They didn’t know what the USian military does?

The name of the organization is the Department of Defense which is what it should focus on.

Defending the invaders of Iraq and Afghanistan is still bad.

Poverty draft IS a real thing

Ok. What share of the USian military comes from poor backgrounds?

living with my grandmother and mother in the same house

Same house or same apartment? If its the former, I struggle to see how you can claim to come from a poor background.

I was told that if I signed up for a 6 year enlistment I would go to college at Charleston University for 2 years, be able to have a 4 year degree after my service

You were told you would be at least defending the most evil polity in the world, one that is currently engaged in at least one genocide, all in exchange for a university degree?

Many people I directly worked with got in with waivers for criminal offenses and admitted that they would probably have ended up in the system and literally had no other options.

So, you are claiming that they wouldn’t even be able to stay in prison?

Do you agree that the rest of the world has a moral right to defend itself against such people, including by killing them, or do you think that these people take priority and should be allowed to contribute to invasions, genocide, etc.?

And what of the firefighters and software engineers (and healthcare professionals) who just so happen to be doing those things in the military?

They are contributing to military tasks the goal of which is subjugation of non-white people. Programming avionics so that planes can bomb Iran, fighting fires on carriers, etc. is unambiguously evil.

You doing them in the civilian sector is somehow a morally superior choice?

If we exclude doing such things for NATO military and espionage organisations, then it almost always is, yes.

You are just as much a protector of capitalism and the capitalist class as any person in the military

Lol no. If you can’t see the difference between stopping fires from killing civilians or destroying buildings/non-military equipment, and directly contributing to things like subjugating Iran or defending invaders of Iraq and Iran from retaliation, you need to go to primary school or something.

your involvement in the healthcare industry is arguably just as problematic as military service if you are.

How so?

Do you consume animals products?

This is probably the closest you have made to a compelling point. However, in this case you would have to attack the people involved in meat production first, rather than people who merely consume those products.

Same goes for the other points in that paragraph.
Also, you do have to contend with the fact that those people were enslaved because of NATO’s military.