Due to a (now former) admin of the instance anarchist.nexus calling for a member of our team, as well as anyone else they call a zionist, to be murdered, the instance has been defederated.
We’re currently discussing how we will proceed with this situation and whether it will affect lemmy.dbzer0.com, which is mostly run by the same admin team, notably excluding the person who used to be on the anarchist.nexus admin team.
We will share further updates once we have them.
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What incentive do I have to remain here if I can’t see stuff from other instances?
Ya, Kaplan needs to be removed from his admin/mod duties ASAP. He sees lemmy.world has his personal and private property and thinks he can do whatever he wishes. That is not what a community is about.
He is the typical reddit mod that we all hate. That is one of the reasons why we are on lemmy rather than on reddit. And yet, we are letting it happen here again? Fuck no. We need to be on the look out and stop such things as soon as possible, before they become too big to deal with.
We need to take our comms and push them to reddthat, disroot and lazysocial.
this is a bit embarrassing
Just so I get this right, you defederated an entire instance because a singular user has lost it and called for violence?
it wasn’t a regular user. it was a member of their admin team.
They are not a member of dbzer0 admins team so whats your justification there then, bubba?
A member of tha admin team who has since been removed
Which is still just a single person.
If the instance in question fails to remove the admin, then the only valid conclusion is that the admin team of that instance supports that type of behavior.
The only possible way to proceed is to defederate from the instance, at least until there are significant changes in the administration, starting with an admission of wrongdoing and an apology. Until that happens, the entire community should treat that instance as malicious.
If the instance in question fails to remove the admin
The post itself admits that the admin in question is no longer in their admin group. I don’t know more beyond that, but it sounds like the instance may already be working towards making things right
I’ve got a bit more knowledge of the narrative here so I’ll explain. Luminous, the admin who said kill all Zionists, has voluntarily resigned as an admin in order to try and get anarchist.nexus refederated. But the prevailing sentiment on anarchist.nexus and its sibling instance is that Luminous did nothing wrong.
Personally, as an anarchist, I think we should only be killing Zionist soldiers, not the civilians. So I’m very concerned by this apparent support for what would likely amount to war crimes. Zionism is bad, but I don’t support the death penalty for being a zionist.
Now if you look at the history of Gaza, it gets even worse. Netanyahu funded Hamas in the most recent Gazan election to help them win, because they were more radical and violent than the other parties. Netanyahu wanted Gaza to be governed by people who think killing all Zionists is okay. So I think that Luminous is playing into Israel’s hands, and giving them the propaganda they want. Is defederation an appropriate way to keep this propaganda from spreading? Unclear, I’m still on the fence. But I’m definitely not on Luminous’ side in all this.
‘netanyahu created hamas’ is a hasbara talking point that removes palestinian agency and de-legitimizes resistance by framing it as an israeli puppet show.
hamas emerged from the material conditions of occupation and blockade
allowing qatari money into gaza and exploiting hamas/pa divisions is standard colonial divide-and-conquer, not ‘creating’ resistance.
the ‘playing into israel’s hands’ argument is just more tone policing. colonial powers will paint resistance as terrorism regardless of rhetoric.
respectability politics doesn’t stop genocide. if palestinian armed resistance against iof soldiers is legitimate, then saying ‘kill zionists’ online isn’t ‘giving israel propaganda’, it’s just being honest about what legitimate resistance entails.
applying ‘war crimes’ frameworks to resistance while actual genocide is happening is liberal legalism that judges the oppressed by their oppressor’s rules. international law was written by imperial powers to protect imperial interests.
this whole framework of calling on moral realism about death penalty being ‘objectively wrong,’ insistence on fair trials, tone policing resistance rhetoric, defending zionist family members as ‘just misled’ is just liberal moralism with anarchist aesthetics. there’s nothing anarchist about supporting state institutions (courts, prisons) or prioritizing israeli propaganda concerns over palestinian liberation.
‘anarcho anti-realist’ my ass
Now, I’m an innocent* bystander normie who’s just wandered in here…
But the way you write is pretty strident(?). I get that this language is developed over time and many interactions that I’ve not seen, and yadda yadda
But you are the FIRST person I’ve seen say “netanyahoo created Hamas”
Who tf sincerely says/believes/promotes that? The comment you replied to sure didn’t. Nowhere in this thread afaik has anyone made a statement even resembling that.
No shit Sherlock opposing interests will try to manipulate their opponents by doing shit like promoting/helping/enabling the “worst elements” in their opposition. That’s not new and occurs everywhere and apparently there is clear and compelling evidence that Netanyahu worked pretty hard to make sure that Palestinians were represented poorly.
So, I guess… Thanks for letting us know that someone out there has that ridiculous rhetoric? But it’s not relevant to the commenter you were replying to, or anything else afaik.
- my innocence is debatable and relative
To some extent, none of that matters. There is no justification for calling for the extra-judicial killing of anyone, no matter how much you dislike their politics.
You might say that some people should face trial for their behavior, and you might support the death penalty as a punitive measure, and those statements might be valid and permissible.
Saying that anyone should be killed based on their personal beliefs or political views is fucking heinous, no matter the context.
extra-judicial
Why should the state have the monopoly on killing? They clearly do a horrible job with it and use it to kill innocent school girls to defend genocide.
What’s legal is not what’s ethical. Legal systems have no basis for justice.
Well, killing soldiers in a war is extrajudicial, and I think there are valid reasons to kill soldiers in a war. I want us to go to war with Israel and blow up their military bases, which would certainly cause the deaths of some soldiers. But soldiers sign up to put their lives on the line for their country, so there’s a measure of fairness. Israel’s draft complicates that argument a little bit, but not by much.
But I remain opposed to the death penalty. In a war, death is the only way to remove someone from being able to harm others. When we have other options, we should take them. If we manage to get Netanyahu into government custody, we should be keeping him alive so he can face trial for his war crimes. And then he should be put in prison for life.
If they are, then they can look forward to re-federating in the future.
But, as I said above, removing the problem person is only part of what the community should require.
And based on what @Grail@multiverse.soulism.net said, that may not be forthcoming.
No they cannot, because Kaplan is on an agenda here. It has nothing to do with the user.
Who’s in charge of that instance. Are you suggesting that admins are never responsible for what they say because every admin is a single individual? The admins of this instance have complete discretion over who they want to federate with.
Are you suggesting that admins are never responsible for what they say because every admin is a single individual?
Not at all. But by defederating the instance, you’re not just punishing the admin, but every other user on that instance. It’s a complete overkill reaction to something that is honestly a harmless threat. If I’d go nuts like that every time someone tells me he wants me to get killed I’d have a very high blood pressure.
Defederation is a last resort reaction if an instance is seriously incompatible with the rest of society, like .ml
I don’t know man, the admins of this instance don’t owe anything to the users over there, and the defederation doesn’t meaningfully impact anyone over there as far as I understand.
If I was regularly chatting with people who call for killing me, I would have a very high blood pressure.If I was regularly chatting with people who call for killing me, I would have a very high blood pressure.
Yes, that’s why most sane instances blocked .ml
But we’re talking about a single person who lost it, not the entire instance rebelling against lemmy.world or something. You’re not just punishing the person who did it, but everyone else on that instance.
You let one Nazi drink at your bar and you’re a Nazi bar.
You only gotta fuck one goat.
And yet the world functions by having groups work together (not with nazis) like every single government on the planet. This person isn’t a nazi. And the bar isn’t a nazi bar. And the about federation is it isn’t like a bar. You can cut them off anytime so you can wait until it becomes (or doesnt) to defederate.
They do support the death penalty, which is gross. I think we should only kill zionist soldiers. Not the civilians. And we should do it in a legitimately conducted war. We should go to war with Israel, blow up their military bases, and force them to make peace with Palestine. None of that requires killing zionist civilians. In fact, killing civilians is often a war crime. So I don’t support War Crimes Luminous.
While I agree with you to an extent, I’d like to point out there are many zionist civilians who are active participants in the genocide. How would they be handled? Also I find the idea of a “legitimately conducted war” to be a fools notion. Violence can be a necessary and appropriate response, but it is ultimately corrosive to all involved. War, as they say, is hell. It is devoid of moral righteousness. If you are in a war, fight it, to survive, but know you aren’t getting out intact nor clean.
Not attacking you, just my 2 cents.
When I say legitimately conducted, I’m talking about not committing war crimes. No targeting civilians, no poison gases, no atom bombs, no cruel and unusual weaponry, no torture of POWs. You know, the bare basics. War is hell, but we don’t need to go making super-hell. Regular hell will do.
As for the civilians who are participating in genocide, I say put them on trial. Send them to prison. Civilians are defined by their not posing an active combat risk. If we defeat the IDF and then Bibi picks up a gun, then he’s become a soldier. But if he surrenders, then we don’t execute him, we put him on trial and send him to prison for life. And it should be a decent prison with a nice quality of life, because there’s no need to punish people when they’ve already been removed from society and can’t do anything to hurt people anymore. I’m a supporter of luxury prisons, they have a better rehabilitation rate and I don’t believe in punishment,
But those “civilians” are actively killing Palestinians as well. There isn’t really a delineating line here when the politics are aligned across the entire country civilians and soldiers, and the country is utilizing civilians as a mechanism to continue the genocide, through settlers who are committing crimes just as bad as the soldiers are. Why do the soldiers not get a trial but the “civilians” do?
To be abundantly clear, I do not agree with “kill all Zionists” in any way shape or form. But I am disagreeing with the entire premise of this conversation. LW is banning someone based not on what they do or have done, but based on a political call that was in their username. You said it yourself, we should kill Zionists soldiers (not saying I agree with this but it is in the conversation). So what makes your point of view so legitimate but their point of view a reason for complete defederation? Imagine the UN even existing if something like this got you kicked out of the conversation.
My grandma’s a zionist. She’s a little old lady who lives in Australia. She’s not Jewish, she’s a Christian. But she’s fallen for the propaganda that says the holy land is owed to Jewish people. She’s gone for a holiday in Israel a few times because the place is important to her faith. But she’s disappointed in Israel for its war crimes in recent years, the same as most people. She wants peace, she just hasn’t realised that Israel is fundamentally anti-peace. She might get there one day.
I don’t think grandma deserves to die. The only thing she’s done wrong is give Israel’s economy a few thousand tourism dollars. That’s bad, but it’s not death penalty bad. I want grandma to live.
I don’t know if defederation is an appropriate response, I haven’t made up My mind. But I do know that Luminous is harming the Palestinian cause by giving Netanyahu the violent rhetoric he wants people to hear from his enemies. Netanyahu wants his enemies to look like terrorists. Luminous looks like a terrorist. I want us to look like we’re interested in stopping the killing.
So why do you allow Zionist admins at lemmy.world? It’s a Zionist instance, by that logic.
The irony of posting this while defending a literal fascist.
Real and cringe accomodationist behavior. So sad that your nazi buddy felt unsafe 😔
Lmaaaoo
Yeah im about to switch to my solarpunk account full time or make one on the now de federated instance full time. Lots of the instances suck but ive ignored this for too long. Duces
Guess I need to move instances
I mean, the great thing about Lemmy, Piefed, and MBin being federated is there really isn’t a reason not to try different servers and services till you find the one you like best. Not like post history and karma mean anything here. Besides it’s nice having a backup account in case your main instance goes down for maintenance or gets DDOS’d. No reason not to have other accounts. Unless you’re doing it for ban evasion, or harassment, vote manipulation, or similar reasons ofc.
Except at some point if many instances defederate many other instances you cannot get the whole picture from any of those. Destroying the whole point of federation.
Federation is a strength if played right. If played wrong, like defederating a whole instance for a personal issue between admins, federation becomes a weakness and a deterrent for people who just want to have some fun to want to join or stay in the fediverse.
Some instances like https://lemmy.zip/ have a very short defederation list: https://lemmy.zip/instances
7 instances, including 2 owned by Meta.
They still suggest some user-level blocking for new joiners, but that way people who want to still see everything can.
Same logic for https://piefed.zip/
Ah the irony of not being able to see your lemmy.zip link bc I’m in the UK…
Access to Lemmy.zip Restricted for UK Users
Due to the United Kingdom’s Online Safety Act, users from the UK can no longer access Lemmy.zip.Lemmy.zip is hosted in Finland, and to ensure compliance with international regulations while avoiding any legal risks associated with the Act, we have made the difficult decision to block UK access. As a volunteer-run platform, we cannot guarantee full compliance with the Act’s vague and expansive requirements. Additionally, we are unwilling to implement invasive age verification methods that would compromise user privacy by requiring the collection of personal data.
If you disagree with these restrictions, we encourage you to contact your Member of Parliament (MP) to express your concerns about government overreach in internet regulation.
That UK law is really something.
Do you think there is any chance it will get reviewed at some point?
Not really.
At the same time, lemmy.zip is being overcautious because I doubt Ofcom know what lemmy is.
Better safe than sorry. We’ve seen enough instances going down lately, being cautious makes sense.
No idea - it was introduced by the less overtly fascistic of the two parties alternating in government, so… D:
Though they are both losing ground to upcoming parties which are more radical than the main ones, so in case the Greens (a party in the left-liberal quadrant of the compass) or the Lib Dems (right-liberals) gets to be part of a coalition government in the next elections, they might be able to push through a repeal.
No idea - it was introduced by the less overtly fascistic of the two parties alternating in government, so… D:
Labour has always been authoritarian and were cheering along OSA all the way when the Conservatives introduced it - Nadine Dorries heavily involved before her bizarre defection to Reform. Something they don’t get called out for enough.
Is it actually moving instances or just making a new account on another instance? I’d want to take everything with me including history, is that possible?
Unfortunately, no. Fediverse allows you to cross-comment on other instances from your “home” instance you’re logged into, but you have to make a whole new account on another instance to move.
the tea is all over yepowertrippinbastards, and i gotta say i agree with the prevailing sentiment. mrkaplan is making a bad move, but its indicative of a pattern of politically based moderation that pervades .world.
but its indicative of a pattern of politically based moderation
No, you know what, keep the typo; it’s correct.
you’ve proven discussion with you is not worth anyone’s time
it’s not a typo, but I can see the syntax is unclear
despite pretending neutrality, .world bases it’s moderation on political motivations
despite pretending neutrality, .world bases it’s moderation on political motivations
Do you wanna just get the “muh freeze peach” part over while you’re at it and save us some time? You just say they’ve feigned neutrality but then never back it up because a) you know it’s provably horseshit, and b) it doesn’t matter because you’re trying separate things into political and apolitical categories that fundamentally do not exist and – as we all know from conservatives pulling this schtick for decades – only hurt the victim by silencing what you determine to be “political” speech and actions.
Yes, it’s political that an instance admin called for another instance’s admin to be killed; yes, it’s political to defederate from them in the sense that everything about social media and group dynamics generally are inherently political; no, I don’t think that’s a bad thing like you’re pretending to. I’m sure you haven’t raised a squeak whenever an instance would choose to defederate from a hateful, far-right cesspit; the reality is that the person feigning care about neutrality here is you.
you know, you don’t have to defend the admins. they’re not going to suck you off.
wow, this screed doesn’t at all debunk the accusation of overt pro-zionist moderation
Dropped that whole “political” thing like a rock, didn’t you? You never said anything about “pro-Zionist moderation”; your only two comments that I replied to were whinging about “politically based” and “political motivations”, and now you’re pivoting with no acknowledgement, because you’re fundamentally arguing in bad faith.
zionism is obviously a political position, and the mods have feigned impartiality about it while moderating anti Zionist sentiment away. you are splitting hairs and it’s unbecoming. your shitty attitude is also damaging your case here.
your shitty attitude is also damaging your case here.
Tone policing too – as though I need my argument to be compelling to somebody who intentionally layers their argument under conservative-style misdirection, and pretending as though failing to mince words to your liking hurts the credibility of my argument.
Everyone bases their decisions on political motivations, it’s part of being a political species.
Not everyone. I dont make choices based on politics, because I do not engage with or participate in politics as best I can. Especially here on Lemmy.
As a mod for .world/c/cars, I only make choices based on the rules of the community and instance. I might not agree with a post or comment, but if it isn’t breaking the rules then I don’t do anything about it, and if its reported content then I will just close the report. Admittedly, its pretty low traffic so I haven’t needed to do much, and the other mod is great and handles things usually before I need to get involved.
I believe it is the responsibility of a mod, admin, or other figure in a position of power to not abuse that power. Fair and equal application of rules, extending the benefit of the doubt but still firm about the rules, etc. are ways to avoid this IMO, so that is what I try to do.
Someone having a different opinion or belief should never be a reason for mod action, even if I think that opinion or belief is wrong. Unless it is against the rules (or clearly dangerous such as suggesting drinking bleach for any reason), it should be allowed to be said. Users shouldnt be afraid to have posts removed at random or because I dont agree with them. Sometimes this means a new rule needs to be made, and thats okay.
You make decisions for your community based on the rules. There’s another word for rules: policies. You make decisions based on the policies. That’s politics. What I think is going on here is, you don’t make decisions based on external politics, just internal politics.
sure, but why didn’t the admins just advertise their real politics instead of pretending they aren’t prozionist
I am confused. If the admin in question is no longer an admin, what’s the need for defederation?
Because this was their goal and the admins was just the excuse they’re using to get rid of another instance world can see
Lmao wait, there are conspiracy theorists on lemmy?
Yeah but also usually just stay on lemmy.world and piefed
Then why are you on ttrpg?
Because they’re on world
Well whatever, if you don’t understand what I said i don’t care anymore
Well whatever, if you don’t understand what I said i don’t care anymore
Just ignoring you being a massive dick!
I’d call it less “conspiracy theory” and more “a history of .world’s administration”, personally.
defederation was done while this person was still an admin
I see. Thank you for clarifying; the timing was unclear in the original post.
Will the two instances work to refederate now that the (former) admin is no longer in power?
The current admins continue to vigorously defend the admin who resigned.
It’s filled with antisemitic users. Who use anti-Zionism to cover up their blatant antisemitic slanting.
Zionism is an antisemitic belief.
You just showcased exactly what I am talking about 🙄
You conflate criticism of Israel and Zionism with antisemitism, that in itself is literally antisemitic.
Just to be clear, so do the users.
This behavior from .world is why I left it in the first place.
Given your comments on here, I’m also now glad I didn’t decide to join piefed.social when I was excited to try out piefed. Its pretty disappointing.
Anyway, I’ll go ahead and point out that an admin getting banned for self-proclaimed support of Zionism is completely appropriate. Defederating an instance with an edgy bit in their profile is completely inappropriate.
This behavior was brought by the same people who tried to push “Everyone’s opinion is valid, no matter how horrible, you’ll just have to talk through it or you’ll be banned”, which they later backtracked on.
So this is entirely what I would expect of @MrKaplan@lemmy.world. Your behavior is a bit of surprise to me, but now I know, so at least there is that.
No they’re not Rimu, you’re wildly misrepresenting reality.
They’re attacking the defederation and saying that Kaplan overreacted. Some think that Lum went too far, others do not, but it is not the consistent opinion that you make it out to be.
Why not?
No the Lemmy.world admins continue to vigorously project their insecurities.
But they’re not of dbzer0. So where is your justification for claiming that you are talking about defederating with them? Oh right. Literally none.
From what I saw, the ‘call to murder’ was someone having kill all zionists in their username, and that only makes sense as a real call to violence if we’re supposed to take everyone’s username seriously and literally. That would be a very weird world to be in, as then we’d have to accept that we’re reading posts written by Star Trek characters come to life, inanimate objects, and various bodily fluids. Without evidence of something worth taking more seriously, at best this looks like the admin team doing something silly, and obviously certain groups of Lemmy users will interpret it less charitably and as the LW admin team being pro-genocide. Neither is a good look.
I think speech on the issue of killing zionists is more serious than Star Trek and cum farts, because there’s a war actively going on. And killing Zionist civilians during a war is starting to sound pretty war-crimey. We should only be killing Zionist soldiers.
If someone said “Murder all Martians. Rimu is a martian.” and then we spend hours debating whether it’s ok to kill martians or not then that would be a waste of time. Because I am not a martian. Obviously there are situations where murdering Martians can be justified - the problem is someone calling for me to be killed based on made-up bullshit. Let’s talk about that.
I accused the “FHF team members of being zionists while simultaneously calling for zionists to be murdered”. but if that were true, then why has MrKaplan not also defederated from lemmy.ml, despite many of their users being just as vocal as I am ?
Oof, this is the part that keeps coming back to haunt every instance across the Threadiverse. The question they raised is: why defederate hexbear.net and Lemmygrad.ml while giving a free pass to lemmy.ml?
There are reasons, though nuance and subtlety seem mostly absent from that YPTB post. When I was growing up, I was taught that my rights ended where someone else’s began, i.e. I can do anything I please, but so too can everyone else. Thus e.g. AN can do whatever it wants, yet as a result if other instances choose to defederate from it as a result, then that is their choice. Why one instance should be free to call for murder while another instance should NOT be free to block that kind of talk looks to me to be pure incel behavior: “my idea of a ‘compromise’ is when the other side does as I say”. aka trolling, or leftist MAGA.
The Threadiverse continues to fracture along the lines of “free speech” instances, which constantly call for the rights of other instances to be curtailed, and instances that enjoy moderating only themselves internally, for the sake of their users happiness since some of us actually are not terminally online and always, Always, ALWAYS looking for a fight.
I think your point about a war going on is spot on, but backwards.
While the project of zionism is engaged in genocide, kill all zionists is pretty clearly a call for resisting and punishing genocide.
Just as during a deeply homophobic regime, be gay do crime is clearly understood as a call to resist our illegitimate system.
If someone, in the course of WWII, said “kill all Nazis”, would you feel the same?
Keeping in mind Nazism, like Zionism, is a political identity one chooses…
And they are closely related ideologies, targeting their opposition and critics
Schindler, the list guy, was a Nazi. And he saved a thousand Jewish people from the Nazis. I don’t think Schindler ought have been killed. Plus there’s Operation Paperclip. They recruited Nazi scientists to work at NASA and help get a man on the moon. I’m not educated enough to understand the full ramifications of Paperclip, but it seems like a decent idea.
But all of that is kinda besides the point, because Netanyahu has a very different propaganda strategy to Hitler. A more sophisticated one. Netanyahu wants there to be extremists who would see him dead. He funded Hamas during the last Gazan election, because of their violent rhetoric. There is serious evidence that he and the government knew about October 7 and deliberately allowed it to happen by suspending the border patrols during the crucial hours. He’s got a plan.
Israel thrives on the violent rhetoric of its opponents, because they want to call us terrorists. That is why we must conduct ourselves with the appropriate restraint to beat these allegations. Luminous’ rhetoric sounds terrorist-y. They’re advocating for the killing of civilians. That’s terrorism. We need to be better than that, or we can’t win the propaganda war and gather allies.
That is why we must conduct ourselves with the appropriate restraint to beat these allegations.
On this point and this point alone I reply: No. Do not let the enemy define the terms of the battle. In the US, the Democrats need to not placate the fascists. Again, I am solely discussing the words I quoted, not the larger topic of zionists or the lemmy thing.
I’m against the death penalty and I’m against targeting civilians during a war. Those aren’t the enemy’s terms of battle, those are My beliefs and values.
You’re replying out of the scope of my quote and reply. Which is your right, but means I have no further reply at this time.
… I’m pretty sure both Democrats and Republicans are fascists. The Democrats want to exploit and enslave weaker nations for the benefit of the “lower” class and the Republicans want the spoils of war to go to the middle class. Both funnel resources to the upper class, so in that regard they aren’t different.
I don’t really have an opinion about this one way or the other, but it’s two sides of the same coin. Despite their different rhetoric, they are ultimately one and the same. I’ve just accepted the fact that I am probably fascist. Honesty is necessary for change.
… I’m pretty sure both Democrats and Republicans are fascists.
two sides of the same coin.
No. Very much no.
But first of all, where you are right is that the oligarchs are the true root of the problem in the US; or at least, the worst problem we have. And they do corrupt the entire system, yes.
However, the bits I’ve quoted above are very much not the case. I won’t do it here, but I have many many times pulled up voting records for what each side has actually voted for.
I can’t say there’s not times when they coordinate to make something almost pass, but I definitely can say that there are very VERY clear differences.
For one recent example close to my home here in Virginia: republicans have abused gerrymandering far longer and far worse than Democrats. Dems have tried to pass legislation to stop it. Btu recently states like Texas gerrymandered in an attempt to help Republicans gain more seats.
So in reply, Virginia did the same. MUH BOTH SIDES!!! But… one critical difference. In Virginia, we VOTED. And it nearly failed. So even when the Dems are fighting back in an attempt to force Republicans to eventually support an end to gerrymandering by gerrymandering themselves, they still put it up to a vote.
The two parties are not the same.
Alas, the Dems are, as a whole, pretty centre-right, but the Republicans are extreme right fascists.
So if you’re any sort of progressive, people like AOC and Bernie are rare lights in a very very dark place. But while there are shadows in the Democrat party, the Republicans are down the street, around the corner, at the back of a very very deep cave.
All that said, think what you wish to think. But really, they are not the same. But we do have very very very deep problems that do affect both parties. Just not equally.
I love it when you fascist lovers out yourself like this.
Ikr? Just for starters, using Operation Paperclip as an example of something good and positive to back up your point, when supposedly your reasoning for defederation is based on the concept of the Nazi bar? That is some seriously wild pro-fash hypocrisy.
I mean this pretty much avoids the question by invoking the idea that because there was some Nazis you approve of, something something… I fail to see the relevance. It sure sounds like apologetics.
You then proceed to moralize about the efficacy of the critique the stament is making, but you didn’t actually address the question.
Your argument is basically “Don’t be critical of Zionists or Israelis, because that plays into their five d chess”.
Now, put yourself in the position of the period immediately before WWII, and in your response, replace the word Israel with the word Nazi Germany.
Would you still agree with your statement? Are you comfortable with history remembering you did these kinds of apologetics on behalf of the worst criminals, the most abhorrent people of the time?
Okay, I’ll switch to talking about the big man himself.
It is a wonderful thing that Hitler killed himself. It was a PR blessing for the allies, because it prevented him from becoming a martyr. If Hitler had not killed himself, I do not think he should have been given the death penalty. I am against killing Hitler unless he was an active combatant. I think Hitler should have been given life in prison, because I am against the death penalty in all circumstances. And it would have made him a martyr.
Likewise, Netanyahu should not be killed. He should be given a fair trial, which I believe should reach a verdict of life in prison. I don’t want Netanyahu martyred, I don’t want to spend tons of money on his death row, I just want to put him in a room where he can’t hurt anyone until he dies of old age.
I’m not a Nazi apologist I just think hitler shouldn’t have been killed.
Actually insane.
The Nazis got some of their best inspiration from America’s treatment of black people. I don’t exactly think America is a shining beacon of responsibility, especially in the 1940s. I don’t think America should have a death penalty, because I don’t trust the American government to wield that power responsibly. If political enemies like Hitler can be executed, then political enemies like Edward Snowden are at risk too.
As an anarchist, I want to limit the power of the state because I don’t trust anyone with that much power. And I especially don’t trust the likes of Harry Truman and Richard Nixon.
If you can’t help but see the consistent position against the death penalty as “Nazi apologia”, that’s your problem.
I don’t mind either statement on it’s own. But it does become problematic once people go around baselessly accusing others of being Nazis/Zionists, which is something that is rampant on lemmy, especially dbzer0 and its offshoots.
Surprise surprise Lemmy isn’t entirely different from Reddit in that:
- It kills a community over the name of one user (yes I’m aware it was an admin)
- Said admin had beef with this user, which they conveniently left out in their post description
- It’s got shameless hypocrisy too where calls to death from zionism is acceptable but not the other way around
For the record, I am not for calling anyone’s death as that’s not my thing, but have some consistency hypocrites. Smh.
The site structure can only do so much when what you hate is certain users. The idea of lemmy is that other instances can be free from the unjust actions of users on one instance such as this one-- which is a success.
I don’t agree. I don’t think people should have usernames of the form “kill all [certain type of people]”.
If someone condemns Israel’s actions against Palestinians then okay. But I don’t think it’s right to call for the deaths of people you disagree with. Even the worst criminals should arguably not be killed with the death penalty, but instead imprisoned for life.
During an active military conflict, killing isn’t applying the death penalty just for disagreeing with someone, it’s typically the only remotely viable way to stop them committing whatever act they’re in the middle of. When that act is genocide, killing them is almost universally the only moral action as anything else, even if it still stopped them, would take longer and in doing so let more genocide happen.
If they’ve been stopped by other means, e.g. economic sanctions make genocide too expensive to continue, then many genocidal acts carry the death penalty under international law. That’s ethically dubious, but it’s far from the biggest problem with anti-genocide law given that it’s blatently not actually preventing genocide. If the username were just apply international law to zionists, then it’d still be promoting killing people.
It’s also misleading to reduce zionists to certain type of people, as it conjoures up ideas based on inherent identity that are obviously bad to persecute before more directly comparable types of people like murder enthusiasts actively committing murders and refusing to stop despite pressure to. No reasonable person would say armed police were unjustified in shooting someone who was stabbing someone else after they’d been already told to drop their weapon. Not all zionists are actively killing people, but they are all calling for it to be allowed to continue, otherwise they inherently wouldn’t be zionists.
Surely it isn’t necessarily true that every single zionist supports bombing Gaza. “Zionist” apparently means:
Surely some people within that definition support the existence of Palestine alongside Israel, and they oppose any harm done to Palestinian civilians. For example there is an Israeli charity, B’Tselem, which apparently supports Palestinian rights, although I don’t know much about them.
Supporting the state of Israel, at a time when it is actively committing a genocide, is supporting the genocide. Genocide should be a red line that forces people to stop supporting its perpetrators, and anyone who doesn’t withdraw support once a genocide starts must be, on some level, okay with it.
Existing within a state doesn’t automatically imply support for it. Most people have at least something they want their state to stop doing, and that can and does include existing. It’s hard to say that a charity issuing statements that Israel is an “apartheid regime”, “no longer a democracy” and “committing genocide” supports the state of Israel.
There are also plenty of people who, if asked, would say they support the state of Israel, but wouldn’t support genocide, and not see that as contradictory because they’re under the impression that Israel isn’t committing a genocide. What they’re supporting isn’t the state of Israel, it’s a hypothetical alternative state of Israel that doesn’t exist. If (pretending for a moment that the USS Enterprise wasn’t decommissioned in 2017 and was currently in the Strait of Hormuz) someone who mistakenly believed the United Federation of Planets was real expressed support after hearing in the news that the USS Enterprise had fired on other ships, it’d be most reasonable to just ignore them rather than assuming their opinion of their imaginary state was relevant to what their opinion of the real United States would be.
There are probably people who support the existence of Israel without supporting what Bibi and his government have done. Opposition politicians in Israel, for example.
Surely in any country there will be people (such as opposition politicians and activists) who oppose the current government’s actions, without wanting the state itself to be dissolved. Even in very authoritarian countries like North Korea there might be such people, although of course they would have to keep their views private, due to near-certain persecution otherwise.
My handle is serious. Deadly serious.
Hello 😏
I mean, isn’t that what conservatives always do? Every horrible remark they make can always be taken back as “just a joke”. It’s like floating a weather balloon to gauge public reaction.
Same dude.
I’m sure you’ll have someone to satisfy your request someday.
a lot of lemmings like to dog whistle by saying they would not shed a tear if all zionists or anyone not protesting against them were killed
because they are cowards
Having issues with a genocidal state is be thing, calling for a specific person to be murdered is another.
Can you post the comment where they called for a specific person to be murdered? A link would be great, but even a copy/paste would do well.
It was a username, which was changed to be or include ‘MurderAllZionists’. This was taken personally, it appears.
Why would you leave out the bit where they called MrKaplan a zionist?
Because Kaplan called themselves a zionist first?
For someone so anti genocide it’s amazing how you are defending zionists 🤔
The username is the relevant part whereas now that user calling anyone a Zionist is a call for a slapping. I thought to add the link so anyone can just read from the horse’s mouth so to speak.
Okay, so still all inference, not a direct call for murder of a specific person.
Seems like shitty behavior that justifies a ban, but defederation?
Yeah there’s been a whole recent wave of mass bannings from the FHF team. So I am guessing there’s a larger and more interpersonal issue going on between these users.
There really hasn’t been any particular ongoing issue between our instances, until now, other than the usual mild frictions. Let me lay out the chain of events, as I understand it.
- Mr Kaplan made a post about the Fediverse Hosting Foundation taking over the running of lemmy-federate. This was the comment that raised the ire of Mr Kaplan (see pic below). At the time, Mr Kaplan complained to me in a DM he had been called a Nazi. I equivocated a little because I thought it was a stretch of the imagination to take it so personally. But in good faith, and because I could tell he was very angry, I chose to ask Luminous to remove the “ZioNazi” phrase from his post in order to calm the situation down. Luminous had also posted the FHF icon with a swastika on top to YPTB, and I asked him to remove that too. Yes, he’s a bit of a shit-stirrer. I thought that was the end of it.
-
I believe that sometime after Luminous got banned by LW, he banned Mr Kaplan for being a Zionist.
-
On Sunday, I got a message from Mr Kaplan claiming that anarchist.nexus was “calling for me to be murdered”. I could hardly believe it. But when I looked into it, it appears he had noticed some provocative slogans in Luminous’ user bio on Anarchist Nexus saying “Murder all Zionists”, “Murder all Nazis” or something along those lines. I don’t know how he noticed them, maybe because he got banned. There was absolutely nothing specifically naming Mr Kaplan afaik. It was just those slogans in his bio.
Now do I agree that wording was way over the top for an instance admin? Yes. And it is obviously not something that would lead to good relations with the other instances with whom we federate. So it was bad judgment, agreed. Luminous agreed to step down from the role as a result.
But for me, personally, I see stuff similar to that all the time on both leftist and mainstream instances, though usually in less edgy forms like “death to the idf” or “death to zionists”. I never imagined anyone would take something like that as a legitimate threat of anything, unless having a moral compass is a threat. Because the Zionists currently taking potshots at the testicles of Palestinian boys for ethnic cleansing purposes are the very people Luminous was wishing death upon in reality, not Mr Kaplan.
If Mr Kaplan wants to make this all about him, that’s his prerogative. But it seems like a heck of a leap to go from an [admittedly provocatively worded] slogan to a claim anarchist.nexus wanted him personally murdered. Or otherwise it’s just a pretext for defederation, I’m not sure really what his motives or goals are in this.
I’ll also note that he made the defederation decision himself with no consultation with his own admin team, or with our admin team. We were given no heads up and no time to act or assess the situation. There was also no consultation with the LW community. So that was, in my opinion a bit of a PTB move for the admin of Lemmy’s biggest instance to take in response. It also felt wildly disproportionate to me over one user, even if it was an admin.
I get that he felt personally attacked by Luminous, but was he really, or is that just the worst possible interpretation that could be made about what is, in fact, a fairly common sentiment on lemmy? And the fact that one admin running the largest Lemmy instance can make kneejerk decisions like this that impact thousands of users with no accountability and no checks and balances is kind of worrying. Remember spez?
Whatever y’all think of dbzer0 and AN, and I know we have our haters (hi!), one thing I hope we can agree we do well is that our whole instance gets to vote whether we decide to defederate another instance. It’s never up to any one person. It takes all the drama and kneejerk respones out of the process.
Anyway, I’m not going to post anything else here, just wanted to put our side across where you could all see it so we could get a chance at a fair hearing in this forum. As far as I’m concerned if LW reverts the defederation and puts some better processes in place for these types of situations then we are all good. Will they drag it out for weeks and then double down, as they nearly always do? Or will they reverse course? Stay tuned folks, I have no fucking idea, and that sucks.
There was absolutely nothing specifically naming Mr Kaplan afaik. It was just those slogans in his bio.
Here is where they accused MrKaplan of zionism
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/a8188089-e263-4d47-82ae-7df961526b4a.png
That’s rich coming from you looking at your moderation actions.
I am having trouble squaring the various conflicting portions of your statement.
Luminous had also posted the FHF icon with a swastika on top to YPTB
Because the Zionists currently taking potshots at the testicles of Palestinian boys for ethnic cleansing purposes are the very people Luminous was wishing death upon in reality, not Mr Kaplan.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I would expect very few of the testicle potshotters to be using the FHF icon?
You are trying to put words into the mouth of Luminous that they never said - they very clearly levied accusations against specifically the FHF, and as the picture that Rimu showed, specifically named MrKaplan as both a Zionist and a genocide apologist.
Don’t forget how Luminous even outright stated that they “preemptively banned” Mr. Kaplan - i.e. not waiting for a specific event but going ahead of any such in order to enact their agenda - which now seems to be what you are claiming that Mr. Kaplan did, but both the data and the very own words of Luminous state clearly how Luminous was the instigator here.
I banned MrKaplan preemptively from !anarchymemes@anarchist.nexus, as I do anyone who displays zionist tendencies. the ban reason was for “zionism, genocide apologia”.
It is no wonder that Mr. Kaplan felt “called out”, when Luminous very explicitly did such a calling out!!
But now, throughout this thread, I mostly see people blaming Mr. Kaplan, citing how he went out ahead of any specific event and preemptively enacted an action - yet rarely or only briefly acknowledging the actions of Luminous that lead directly to Mr. Kaplan’s response.
i.e. Luminous of AN started a witch hunt, calling Mr. Kaplan a witch, and got defederated in return. Although, if AN truly wants to keep anything that has even remotely touched upon Zionism away from itself, then isn’t being defederated from LW a good thing? Or maybe, just maybe, Luminous did not think through the full ramifications of their decision, before they unilaterally took preemptive action against several mods and even admins of other instances?
Notice how Rimu won’t respond to this, knowing they can’t refute this.
Yes, I would say this is looking looking like an interpersonal fued more than level headed moderating decisions.
Welp, this is the nature of federation. Some folks will buckle up, others will eject. I’m glad that the network will survive either way.
Word is MrKaplan is the only active admin left and has basically full control now.
So this is his personal vendetta.
I don’t follow too much on Lemmy politics, but I don’t like saying anyone should be murdered. Why does that seem so normalized on here? Well to be fair, on the internet in general. Like to even have a discussion of well, you can say it in this case but not in that case. Wtf? We could not encourage it at all? Gives me the ick, seriously.
Why does that seem so normalized on here? Well to be fair, on the internet in general
People who yet to emotionally grow up feel powerless due to economic and political circumstances so they use strong language to pretend their words and emotions have any weight behind them.
Because there is a pretty big group of tankies who literally are just maga version wearing “we’re the left” patches…when in reality they’re just authoritarians who can’t see nuances for shit and think if anyone who disagrees with them should be put against a wall and shot. It’s why hexbear was defederated and now more and more instances like hexbear who are realizing their echo chamber is being tuned out have built new instances and spilled into them.
“Authoritarian” Hexbear has votes before defederating and argues based on what’s the best for their users and doesn’t just reflexively defederate based on interpersonal drama between two admins.
The federation dropped hexbear as a whole…not the other way around…and a shit ton of users on pretty much all instances are in support of dropping .ml because of the amount of tankie crap that comes from it, but they haven’t yet because of the lemmy devs.
so I know lemmy.world “pre-emptively defederated hexbear as a last resort” and kept throwing this “troll instance” thing around (https://hexbear.net/post/280770). but for most other instances like sh.itjust.works it was hexbear defederating due to reactionaries flooding hexbear or people just feeling unsafe around them, see
- https://hexbear.net/post/5221649
- https://hexbear.net/post/1672023
- https://hexbear.net/post/528899
- https://hexbear.net/post/458637
- https://hexbear.net/post/369410
“The federation” didn’t drop hexbear as a whole, you can just search for “vote” or “defed” in !announcements@hexbear.net and !hexbear@hexbear.net to see the votes for yourself, its all public.
When I say federation as a whole, I mean more instances have dropped hex than hex has dropped them. Just because they defed from some instances doesn’t mean that the federation as a whole hasn’t done the same. Hell even in this thread the amount of alts from hexbear here down voting anyone who says anything else is proof that the majority of hex are people who just want to spread tankie propaganda and whine when they get called out on it.
When I say federation as a whole, I mean more instances have dropped hex than hex has dropped them.
ok who dropped hexbear and why? Also I see only myself and two others from hexbear.
So does Anarchist.nexus and Db0. Meanwhile Kaplan just does things to appeal to his ego and his sugar daddies hosting his zionazi fourm.
Kaplan allegedly being g*rman is of course the icing on this whole shit-sundae. The absolute state of the g*rman christians is why I’m churchless atm. Like I used to be very critical of how the GDR treated churches, but I must say, I get it now… It’s the year 2026 and there are still “prayers for pissrael” hosted it’s jokerfying
He really reads “death to colonizers” and goes “shit that’s me! I colonize and subjugate!”
at least he has self-awareness which makes him smarter than most g*rmans
I heard in Germany they let Catholic and Protestant churches run their hospitals and they are legally allowed to fire people for shit like getting divorced. It’s such a backwards conservative country.
I’ve been noticing the FAF leaning more tankie over time.
I’ve been noticing the multiverse leaning more alt-accounts over time.
A lemmy.world moderator recently accused @Mechoselachia@multiverse.soulism.net of being My alt. The problem with that accusation is, I have proof that we’re different people. Here it is.
for liberals ‘tankies’ are anyone to their left at this point, as you defederate from one group of leftists you all just go on witch hunts for the next group which is too far left for you.
also you post on meanwhileongrad, you literally hang out with nazis
Sure thing diva… you’re one of the big tankies… I’m sure you have alts ready to go once .ml ever gets defederated.
Also calling posts on meanwhileongrad nazis just proves my point. There are tons of instances there of tankies suggesting killing people who would go against them.
I’m an anarchist and the only alts I have are ones I use for moderating outside of .ml
calling posts on meanwhileongrad nazis just proves my point.
It’s a pattern of behavior of the users there. I made a whole post about how common it is on meanwhileongrad for people to complain about ‘degenerate tankie roaches’, specifically about queer users and wanting to ‘wipe out vast swaths of degenerates’ (from their feed).
We’ve had this discussion before, you just use the term anarchist because you don’t like the negatives of being an authoritarian communist that would love to run the golags for those of us who disagree with tankies.
You still post and mod at hexbear…a literal place that spews russian/CCP propaganda and is cool with Ukraine being invaded. They don’t get to deny the Uyghurs genocide, but then say Palestine is a genocide…both are true…they just don’t like the Palestinian genocide because some western fuckwits are the ones doing it.
Isn’t .db0 the anarchist hangout btw?
i use the term anarchist because it’s how i organize, the people i organize with, and the values i hold.
i picked .ml at the time because it was the developer instance, but i’ve stuck with it because it pisses people off.
i haven’t found places like hexbear to be unwelcoming either; the comm i mod there even has an explicit rule against sectarianism (ie, if an ml is shittalking anarchists broadly it will get moderated). i don’t have anything against db0, i even help mod a comm there too.
Which is fine that you think that way but you’re hanging out with the wrong crowd then. Those tankies if they ever got power would put you right next to me in a firing squad. You’re just a means to their ends.
This is the sort of person that inhabits .world, yet criticizes Diva for being an evil tankie.
On any left leaning instance your account would have been permanently banned, .world however will allow you to be a vile disgusting person for years without stopping it.
Lol you dig up comments that got me banned for calling out islam as a violent religion…boo fucking who. Right now it is, and tolerance from the left to give it a pass is how you end up with more violence. Deal with it.
O and while we’re at it. The ban I got from the Ukraine sub was because I made a comment that putin should suck a dick, in which the incredibly dumb mod decided was homophobic and I should be banned for it… dumbest shit ever, but they didn’t keep the comment because they knew that other users would agree that the ban was unwarranted. So they just said “homophobic slur” in the mod log to make themselves look better…
So yea…not chill with islam (or hell pretty much any religion, they’re oppression wrapped in gold foil) but I’m super pro LGBTQ+ supporter… I literally have a range I own that I volunteer to train LGBTQ+ people who want to become firearm owners on.
Should I drag up some diva comments? Which are usually posted to meanwhileongrad?
I looked at your modlog to see what sort of person you were, and it was telling. You’re a grade A racist, homophobe, bigot banned from all over the Fediverse.
https://lemmy.ml/post/39719938
Since you seem to think I’m homophobic and a bigot…you might want to add diva@lemmy.ml to that list then.
Because that’s the bullshit ban she was given for using cumrag…just as I got the ban for saying trump is sucking putins dick.
Lol I’m banned on tankie subs as are most of the people who go against your tankie shit. No one wants authoritarian rulers…nor do we want to hear russian or CCP propaganda…
That’s why I was banned.
But yea…totally homophobic.
Lol you dig up comments that got me banned for calling out islam as a violent religion…boo fucking who. Right now it is, and tolerance from the left to give it a pass is how you end up with more violence. Deal with it.
“Why dig up comments to prove my islamophobia when I can just post them right here”
Islam is the current violent religion. Deal with it. Statistics don’t give a shit about your feelings. You’re against Catholics because they raped kids right? But you’re okay with Islam that straight up murders and stones people to death on the regular.
Sorry but if you’re going to label me, at least do it correctly. I’m guessing I need the label of “against all religions” but I’m sure that’s not what you want to hear.
You won’t find sympathy here
Collective punishment is Zionist shit
I appreciate the openness of the moderation around here
Sarcasm?
They did this days ago and only announced it because they caught shit in the Matrix channel for being sneaky.
I’m not on the Matrix channel, this is more transparent than reddit and most social media sites, so yeah I think it is good
To be clear, whilst it was announced in the matrix channel first - if I wanted to quietly defederate an instance, I wouldn’t blurt it out to a group chat comprised of a bunch of other instance owners and admins, including admins of the parent instances of anarchist.nexus who would likely get upset about it.
