I have a 56 TB local Unraid NAS that is parity protected against single drive failure, and while I think a single drive failing and being parity recovered covers data loss 95% of the time, I’m always concerned about two drives failing or a site-/system-wide disaster that takes out the whole NAS.
For other larger local hosters who are smarter and more prepared, what do you do? Do you sync it off site? How do you deal with cost and bandwidth needs if so? What other backup strategies do you use?
(Sorry if this standard scenario has been discussed - searching didn’t turn up anything.)
Not all data is equal. I backup things i absolutely can not lose and yolo everything else. My love for this hobby does not extend to buying racks of hard drives.
Same, my unraid server is over 40 tb but I only have ~1.5 tb of critical data, being my immich photos and some files. I have an on site and off site raspberry pi with 4tb nvme SSD for nightly backups
True words of wisdom here from a self hosting perspective.
You’ll think I’m crazy, and you’re not wrong, but: sneakernet.
Every time I run the numbers on cloud providers, I’m stuck with one conclusion: shit’s expensive. Way more expensive than the cost of a few hard drives when calculated over the life expectancy of those drives.
So I use hard drives. I periodically copy everything to external, encrypted drives. Then I put those drives in a safe place off-site.
On top of that, I run much leaner and more frequent backups of more dynamic and important data. I offload those smaller backups to cloud services. Over the years I’ve picked up a number of lifetime cloud storage subscriptions from not-too-shady companies, mostly from Black Friday sales. I’ve already gotten my money’s worth out of most of them and it doesn’t look like they’re going to fold anytime soon. There are a lot of shady companies out there so you should be skeptical when you see “lifetime” sales, but every now and then a legit deal pops up.
I will also confess that a lot of my data is not truly backed up at all. If it’s something I could realistically recreate or redownload, I don’t bother spending much of my own time and money backing it up unless it’s, like, really really important to me. Yes, it will be a pain in the ass when shit eventually hits the fan. It’s a calculated risk.
I am watching this thread with great interest, hoping to be swayed into something more modern and robust.
That is old-old-school. It works tho. You have to be a bit scheduled about it, to encompass current and future important data. IIRC AWS created a 100 petabyte drive and a truck to haul it around to basically do the same thiing, just in much larger amounts.
Sneakernet crew here too. My work offsite backup is in my backpack. Few times per week I do a sync which takes a few minutes and take it home again. (The sync archives old versions of files and the drive is encrypted.)
We tried several cloud-based solutions and they were all rather expensive or just plain hard to run to completion or both.
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I’ve seen in this thread:
Fewer Letters More Letters Git Popular version control system, primarily for code HTTP Hypertext Transfer Protocol, the Web HTTPS HTTP over SSL NAS Network-Attached Storage RAID Redundant Array of Independent Disks for mass storage SSD Solid State Drive mass storage SSL Secure Sockets Layer, for transparent encryption VNC Virtual Network Computing for remote desktop access VPN Virtual Private Network ZFS Solaris/Linux filesystem focusing on data integrity
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I don’t. Of my 120tb, I only care about the 4tb of personal data and I push that to a cloud backup. The rest can just be downloaded again.
Same here, ~30TB currently but my personal artifacts portion is only like 2TB, which is very affordable with rsync.net, which conveniently has an alerts setting if more than X kb hasn’t changed in Y days. (I have my Synology set up to spit out daily security reports to meet that amount, so even if I don’t change anything myself I won’t get bugged)
I only care about the 4tb of personal data and I push that to a cloud backup
I have doubles of the data. Some of 'em. That way I know I have a pristine one in backup. Then I can use it, it gets corrupted, I don’t care.
Actually, I have triples of the W2s. I have triples, right? If I don’t, the other stuff’s not true.
See, the W2s the one I have triples of. Oh, no, actually, I also have triples of the kids photos, too. But just those two. And your dad and I are the same age, and I’m rich and I have triples of the W2s and the kids photos.
Triples makes it safe.
Triples is best.
Bob Odenkirk has never steered us wrong, thanks. I downloaded three copies of this from YouTube in case I forget.
I follow a similar strategy. I back up my important stuff. And I’m gonna have to re-rip my DVD collection and redownload the Linux ISOs in the unlikely case the RAID falls apart. That massively cuts down on the amount of storage needed.
Do you have logs or software that keeps track of what you need to redownload? A big stress for me with that method is remembering or keeping track of what is lost when I and software can’t even see the filesystem anymore.
I don’t know of a pre-wrapped utility to do that, but assuming that this is a Linux system, here’s a simple bash script that’d do it.
#!/bin/bash # Set this. Path to a new, not-yet-existing directory that will retain a copy of a list # of your files. You probably don't actually want this in /tmp, or # it'll be wiped on reboot. file_list_location=/tmp/storage-history # Set this. Path to location with files that you want to monitor. path_to_monitor=path-to-monitor # If the file list location doesn't yet exist, create it. if [[ ! -d "$file_list_location" ]]; then mkdir "$file_list_location" git -C "$file_list_location" init fi # in case someone's checked out things at a different time git -C "$file_list_location" checkout master find "$path_to_monitor"|sort>"$file_list_location/files.txt" git -C "$file_list_location" add "$file_list_location/files.txt" git -C "$file_list_location" commit -m "Updated file list for $(date)"That’ll drop a text file at
/tmp/storage-history/files.txtwith a list of the files at that location, and create a git repo at/tmp/storage-historythat will contain a history of that file.When your drive array kerplodes or something, your files.txt file will probably become empty if the mount goes away, but you’ll have a git repository containing a full history of your list of files, so you can go back to a list of the files there as they existed at any historical date.
Run that script nightly out of your crontab or something (
$ crontab -eto edit your crontab).As the script says, you need to choose a file_list_location (not
/tmp, since that’ll be wiped on reboot), and set path_to_monitor to wherever the tree of files is that you want to keep track of (like,/mnt/file_arrayor whatever).You could save a bit of space by adding a line at the end to remove the current files.txt after generating the current git commit if you want. The next run will just regenerate
files.txtanyway, and you can just usegitto regenerate a copy of the file at for any historical day you want. If you’re not familiar withgit,git logto find the hashref for a given day,$ git checkout <hashref>to move where things were on that day.EDIT: Moved the
git checkoutup.That’s incredibly helpful and informative, a great read. Thanks so much!
My *arrstack DBs are part of my backed up portion, so they’ll remember what I have downloaded in my non-backed up portion.
servarr* and jellyfin are managing my movies and tv-shows
Set up a job to write the file names of everything in your file system to a text file and make sure that text file gets backed up. I did that on my Unraid server for years in lieu of fully backing up the whole array.
In my case, for Linux ISOs, is only needed to login in my usual private trackers and re-download my leeched torrents. For more niche content, like old school TV shows in local language, I would rely in the community. For even more niche content, like tankoubons only available at the time on DD services, I have a specific job but also relying in the same back up provider that I’m using for personal data.
Also, as it’s important to remind to everyone, you must encrypt your backup no matter where you store it.
If you can’t remember what you lost, did you really need it to begin with?
Unless it’s personal memories of course.
I can’t remember the name of an excel spreadsheet I created years ago, which has continually matured with lots of changes. I often have to search for it of the many I have for different purposes.
Trusting your memory is a naive, amateur approach.
If the spreadsheet is important it sounds like it would be part of the 4 GB that was backed up.
Psst, you missed the point and need to re-read the thread.
You put that with everything else similar into a folder, which is backed up. Mine is called “Files”. If there’s something in there that I don’t need backed up. It still gets backed up. If there’s something very large in there that I don’t need backed up, it gets removed in one of my “oh shit these backups are huge” purges.
The key here being that you actually remember the file exists, because it’s important. Some other random spreadsheet you don’t even remember exists because you haven’t needed it since forever is probably not all that important to backup.
If you loose something without ever realizing you lost it, it was not important so there would be no reason to make a backup.
So you do remember that you have several frequently-used spreadsheets.
For me, I have a bad memory. I might remember a childhood movie (a nickname I give to special Linux ISOs) that I hadn’t even thought of for 10 years and track down a copy, sometimes excavating obscure sources, and that may be hours of one-time inspiration and work repeated many times over. Having a complete list is a good helper, but a full backup of course is best.
For me, I only back up data I can’t replace, which is a small subset of the capacity of my NAS. Personal data like photos, password manager databases, personal documents, etc. get locally encrypted, then synced to a cloud storage provider. I have my encryption keys stored in a location that’s automatically synced to various personal devices and one off-site location maintained by a trusted party. I have the backups and encryption key sync configured to keep n old versions of the files (where the value of n depends on how critical the file is).
Incremental synchronization really keeps the bandwidth and storage costs down and the amount of data I am backing up makes file level backup a very reasonable option.
If I wanted to back up everything, I would set up a second system off-site and run backups over a secure tunnel.
I have a 120TB unraid server at home, and a 40TB unraid server at work. Both use 2 x parity disks.
The critical work stuff backs up to home, and the critical home stuff backs up to work.
The media is disposable.
Both servers then back up to Crashplan on separate accounts - work uses the Australian server on a business account, home used the US server on a personal account.
I figure I should be safe unless Australia and the US are nuked simultaneously… At which point my data integrity is probably not the most pressing issue.
why is your work stuff at home and why is your personal stuff at work ಠ_ಠ
Yeah I guess it probably makes more sense when it’s my business… Maybe not if you’re an employee at some corporate randomly hosting backups of your dog photos.
A second offsite NAS (my old one) with the same capacity for the larger files
Backblaze B2 and a Hezner storage box for Really Important stuff.
Okay Mr. Money Bags
It’s literally a Raspberry pi 3B+ and a USB hard drive in a plastic storage box at my parents house 😅
Well, first while raid is great, it’s not a replacement for backups. Raid is mostly useful if uptime is imperative, but does not protect against user errors, software errors, fs corruption, ransomware or a power surge killing the entire array.
Since uptime isn’t an issue on my home nas, instead of parity I simply have cold backups which (supposedly) I plug in from time to time to scrub the filesystems.
If a online drive dies I can simply restore it from backup and accept the downtime. For my anime I have simply one single backup, but or my most important files I have 2 backups just in case one fails. (Unfornately both onsite)
On the other hand, for a client of mine’s server where uptime is imperative, in addiction to raid I have 2 automatic daily backups (which ideally one should be offsite but isn’t, at least they are in different floors of the same building).
I’ve been following this post since the first comment.
And I have just put together my own RAID1 1TB NAS. And I did not think that 1TB will serve me forever, more like “a good start”.
But the numbers I’ve been seeing in here… you guys are nuts 😆
I have 3 main NASes
78TB (52TB usable) hot storage. ZFS1
160TB (120TB) warm storage ZFS2
48TB (24TB) off site. ZFS mirror
I rsync every day from hot to off site.
And once a month I turn on my warm storage and sync it.
Warm and hot storage is at the same location.
Off site storage is with a family friend who I trust. Data isn’t encrypted aside from in transit. That’s something else I’d like to mess with later.
Core vital data is sprinkled around different continents with about 10TB. I have 2 nodes in 2 countries for vital data. These are with family.
I think I have 5 total servers.
Cost is a lot obviously, but pieced together over several years.
The world will end before my data gets destroyed.
But would your data survive a nearby gamma-ray burst?
Amateurs not keeping at least one backup off-planet SMH
I put a QNAP on the ISS. Expensive, but I sleep soundly.
Tape or backblaze
Personally I deal with it by prioritizing the data.
I have about the same total size Unraid NAS as you, but the vast majority is downloaded or ripped media that would be annoying to replace, but not disastrous.
My personal photos, videos and other documents which are irreplaceable only make up a few TB, which is pretty managable to maintain true local and cloud backups of.
Not sure if that helps at all in your situation.
I have data that I actually care about in RAIDZ1 array with a hot standby and it is syched to the cloud. The rest (the vast majority) is in a RAIDZ5. If I lose it, I “lose” it. Its recoverable if I decide I want it again.
What’s your recovery needs?
It’s ok to take 6 months to backup to a cloud provider, but do you need all your data to be recovered in a short period of time? If so, cloud isn’t the solution, you’d need a duplicate set of drives nearby (but not close enough for the same flood, fire, etc.
But, if you’re ok waiting for the data to download again (and check the storage provider costs for that specific scenario), then your main factor is how much data changes after that initial 1st upload.
Sorry. Shortly after posting this and the initial QA I left for a trip.
I could definitely wait those time periods for a first backup and a restore, since I assume it’ll be a once in 10 year at worst situation. Data changes after the first upload should be show enough to keep up.
No worries, I don’t have a time limit on responses 😉
But… I took somethong like ~3 days to get an initial baxkup done.
Then ~3 years later I was at a different provider doing the same thing.
What I did do differently was to split the data into different backup pools (ie photos, music, work, etc) rather than 1 monolithic pool… that’ll make a difference.
That does make sense - also matches how I have currently sperated files so it’s a valuable idea. Thanks!
I use aws s3 deep archive storage class, $0.001 per GB per month. But your upload bandwidth really matters in this case, I only have a subset of the most important things backed up this way otherwise it would take months just to upload a single backup. Using rclone sync instead of just uploading the whole thing each time helps but you still have to get that first upload done somehow…
I have complicated system where:
- borgmatic backups happen daily, locally
- those backups are stored on a btrfs subvolume
- a python script will make a read-only snapshot of that volume once a week
- the snapshot is synced to s3 using rclone with --checksum --no-update-modtime
- once the upload is complete the btrfs snapshot is deleted
I’ve also set up encryption in rclone so that all the data is encrypted an unreadable by aws.
It is cheap as long as you don’t need to restore your data. Downloading data from S3 costs a lot. OP asked about 56TB of storage, for which data retrieval would cost about 4.7k
https://aws.amazon.com/s3/pricing/ under data transfer
Don’t do this. It’s a god damn nightmare to delete
How so? I can easily just delete the whole s3 bucket.
Backblaze offers unlimited data on a single computer, $99/year.
There might be some fine print that excludes your setup but might be worth investigating.
only windows (maybe mac)
Wine or there is a Docker container that runs the Backblaze client.
Yeah, people have done workarounds and stuff to get their entire NAS backed up but those seemed sketchy and bad when I looked into it.
