People should be able to write software for Android, and distribute it outside Google’s Play store, without having to:
- pay Google
- give government ID to Google
- agree to Google terms and conditions
People should be able to install the software they want on their phone, from sources other than Google’s Play store, without having to jump through Google-imposed hoops.
e.g. via F-Droid.
We’ve got until September this year to stop Google squeezing the open Android ecosystem.
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fuck google and fuck android.
donate to https://postmarketos.org/ (and any of the great opensource mobile projects).
stop begging for longer chains and bigger cages.
Lowkey postmarketos isnt where its at sorry i think mobian would be better because look at debian, ubuntu made it better but not quite there and then we got mint and zorin. I think the same will happen mobian and postmarket is based on mobian. Also kde and gnome are the one that need the funding since they run the gui/desktop environment.
Isn’t Postmarket based on Alpine, or did that change?
Or… just don’t use android. There’s a few degoogled forks out there, they should really catch on.
“The tighter you squeeze, the more slips through your fingers.”
Also, we all know this isn’t about keeping malicious apps off people’s devices, because even the play store is full of malicious apps. I’d trust anything on F-droid more.
I trust 8 year old out of date F-droid apps more than google play front page apps.
Dumb question: how is this affecting projects like Graphene OS?
Can android just be forked and detached from google?
I am guessing that despite being “open source”, the project depends on many binary blobs to interface with the wireless devices ??
Google has been systematically moving stuff out of the open-source part of Android and into proprietary areas for some time now. They’re making it harder and harder for anyone to make a working Android OS that isn’t full of closed-source Google spyware. For now these projects survive, but Google is clearly hostile to them.
My last straw was when I had location services permission denied to chrome, and then one day discovered that it had turned them back on without notifying me…
Also, every time my apps updated they gave themselves back permissions that I had disabled.
What would it take to start from a clean slate? I mean, a mad lad said about 35 years ago “UNIX expensive. I’m gonna make my own OS”
What are the obstacles for something like this to happen for phones? I assume device drivers, but probably it is much more complicated than that
I see a lot of people responded with a true clean slate, but really, a fork is a clean slate.
It’s not like Graphene, or Lineage, or any others would stop working. More maintainers would be needed for security issues, but way less than to get (non-Android) Linux phones up to speed.
Many graphene users, myself included, use all FOSS software from outside Google’s store.
FSF has a project called LibrePhone
Broken link?
I have a GNU/Linux phone I carry in my other pocket. Here are the biggest issues I can see:
- Driver support for components in the mainline kernel (lets you install any distro and things like camera, Bluetooth just work)
- Power management; turns out it is a hard technical problem to have your phone suspend to save energy, while being awake enough to know what and when to turn back on to receive chats/calls, playback music, etc
- Cameras have a lot of stuff beyond drivers happening behind the scenes these days in software that would need to be developed, especially given it is a big reason people choose their phones for
- Phone certification is tough, this has stopped even companies like Fairphone from shipping their devices worldwide, I imagine even harder for a device like the Purism Librem 5 where you can literally upgrade Wi-Fi, BT, and cellular generations like a gameboy cartridge
- App ecosystems take a while to build up, it is a chicken/egg scenario. I think things are in a useable state for all the default apps an iPhone has, but if you want Uber, Uber Eats, you either have to draw even more power essentially running Android via Waydroid, or use a typically more janky web app that may be missing some features
Aren’t there also issues with Banking Apps and their requirements around security and signing?
access the bank website in the browser?
Not all have websites sadly. Virgin for example got rid of their web app and now direct you to download them mobile app as the only way to manage your accounts outside of the brick and mortar branches. Obviously I now rarely use that credit card, if ever. But others may have their main bank accounts and mortgages etc with such a bank and that would suck.
oof, yeah, that sounds like a good reason not to do business with them
I carry a Linux phone in my normal pocket, not my other one.
The camera doesn’t work, I don’t have any problem with apps but I am probably not a typical user in that regard, but my 5000mAh battery lasts me a day and ends on 30-40%, which is reasonable but not nearly as good as Android. My family members complain I sound like I’m underwater when I call them and the phone crashes every morning when I take it off the charger.
Linux phones are a wonderful promise but require a lot of comprimises. I hope they improve soon
I assume device drivers, but probably it is much more complicated than that
Yes, device drivers are an issue. Reverse engineering them is a bitch and slows you down, particularly if you want to support a wide range of models and those models keep getting hardware updates.
But that’s not all, software ecosystem is another big one. Android and iOS have seen two decades of people developing software for them. In order for them to want to port their software over to your cleanSlateOS, it would have to have a significant user base. And in order for cleanSlateOS to draw that significant user base, it would have to have an attractive suite of apps to run on it. It’s a catch-22.
You could, in theory, try to develop emulators or compatibility layers so that Android apps will also run on cleanSlateOS. But that, again, is time-consuming, will never be free of friction, and require you to make compromises with regard to security and privacy (many apps simply don’t run properly without Google’s main piece of spyware, the Play Services). It will also kind of tie you to Google again - and that was the thing you were trying to get away from in the first place…
GrapheneOS is currently unaffected, at least specifically regarding your freedom to install apps. They’ve stated this won’t affect GrapheneOS.
The main problem as pointed out by floofloof is that a lot of Android development is no longer part of AOSP, but separate proprietary implementations. For example, if you install stock Android, Google has a feature to recognize music playing around you and provide a list to you later. GrapheneOS lacks this feature, because it relies on proprietary code. Same goes for the features to find your device if it’s lost, AI stuff, etc.
Personally I’d be very heppy if Graphene OS continues long into the future without those features anyway.
Most of them aren’t necessary to most people, but the main concern is features that should reasonably be part of the core Android experience being removed, or features that have no reason to be reliant on Google at all.
For example, GrapheneOS can’t support the detection of your phone being quickly ripped away from you to auto-lock the device, even though that should only require onboard sensors and processing, and it can’t support the additional custom clocks for lock screen customization, because Google decided those would be built into the Google app then extended to Android after, rather than being built into AOSP.
You can reasonably see a future where other functionality gets put into these proprietary blobs too. Maybe the launcher becomes proprietary and GrapheneOS has to use or develop a separate FOSS one that might not support all the same features. Maybe charging optimization gets locked behind proprietary code because Google claims it uses “special algorithms” to adjust how your phone charges. Maybe Private Space gets turned proprietary because Google claims it needs special security features.
That’s why it’s particularly concerning, because in the future, Google could just decide that any number of features aren’t part of AOSP anymore, and now GrapheneOS either has to give them up entirely, or make/find an alternative.
And I’m already steadily moving to Linux based platforms like Mobian, SailfishOS, Ubuntu Touch, and others.
This vile move by Google was written on the wall for years. Those who use their products are test subjects who then are promoted to cattle, not customers.
Which devices do you use? I really want to do this but need banking stuff, WhatsApp (for family communication) and the phone on my Pixel 7 is really good so dont want to lose that.
Don’t interrupt your enemies when they are making mistakes. Let Google make this mistake and the EU fuck them up.
From the FAQ page
Sideloading is fundamental to Android, and it’s not going anywhere.
What’s the concern here?
The problem is that “not going anywhere” doesn’t mean it won’t get severely restricted, and that they’re still gonna force devs to verify before being able to distribute an app.
It doesn’t mean that it will be severely restricted either.
What’s wrong with making devs verify? How does that hurt the end user if side loading still works?
Because it exposes devs of projects that may not want to be exposed such as ICE trackers. Furthermore it gives Google veto power over whst you can sideload
If someone makes an app and I want to install it, that’s between me and the developer.
What’s wrong with making devs verify?
It’s just okay to you if an unwanted third wheel wants the power to choose which developers apps I can install? They also conveniently collect a fee for it.
It’s a curated app store. App devs are still free to just not put it on that store and host it themselves. You can definitely keep it between you and the dev.
This is not about Google Play it’s an OS level thing.
These questions are always asked in the opposite direction. What’s right with making devs verify? What does it gain an end user?
You think AI app slop is good? Cause that’s all you’ll have if literally anyone can just put an app into whatever store they want.
So let the app stores sort that out. If Google wants signing on play store then fine. Don’t force it on people who don’t want it.
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Honestly we need operating systems to be regulated to have the freedom to install any app you want without the company’s permission. Maybe not all of them, but any provided with a general computation device such as a computer or smartphone, and the freedom to replace operating systems on any device that isn’t highly specialized with immediate safety concerns (stuff like insulin pump systems and cars)
The problem is these companies have infinite lawyers and will find ways around. With the way you’ve worded it, PCs and Phones will no longer be marketed as personal devices. They will instead be a licensed device you paid to have the privilege to use, and only to be used for communication, work and internet access. This making it so it won’t fall under “general computation”
What we really should be pushing for is open platforms. Getting our friends and family on open platforms, and asking our governments to fund open platforms. The EU was almost doing good until this ID bullshit where you have to have a Play Certified or iOS device.
The logical goal here is that locked bootloaders should be illegal.
Fuck Google. Can’t we fork their shit? Let them close their platform while we keep it open.
