The point is that slogan is considered hateful to some. It’s considered to be calling for terrible things. You probably don’t mean it that way (I hope), but knowing how offensive it is to others, why would you keep using it?
Because the people claiming they find it hateful are doing so performatively in order to restrict just criticism of their favourite country’s genocidal actions. Or are being earnest, but have been tricked into believing it is offensive by the former group. Either way, the outcome is a pro-genocide one.
No, it reinforces the notion that the Jews in Isreal are in existential danger and that leads to their right to defend themselves and that leads to their twisted justification of attacking Palestine civilians.
No because it’s not ‘performative’. They are offended at the call to kill all Jews (how they see the phrase). And then that muddies the water on Israeli ‘defense’. If others are ‘tricked’ into believing that meaning to the phrase, then the phrase has that meaning regardless. And people using it know what it is interpreted as. They only keep using it because they want to convey that meaning while. Like racist assholes saying ‘all lives matter’.
They are offended at the call to kill all Jews (how they see the phrase).
Right but that goes to the second category. There are two groups: the performative ones and the tricked ones. Because the phrase doesn’t mean “kill all Jews”. That’s a lie made up by Israel propaganda to justify the genocide.
“All lives matter” was a phrase deliberately used to undermine the notion that “black lives matter”. That’s not what’s going on here. “From the river to the sea” is the equivalent of black lives matter. It’s the call for freedom against oppression.
It’s not really a stretch tho is it. Chants of ‘death to Israel’, ‘death to America’ are common in the Arab world. Or do those have some nice meaning too?
After overcoming Nazi germany, the west supported the civilians of Germany - it did not wipe it Germany the map. What do you think Hamas would do if it could?
They wiped the german settlers off the map and sent them back to where they came from. That’s the comparison I was going for. All the settlers east of the Oder had to be resettled back in Germany proper. It’s important to realise the similarities, these fascist projects all have a settler-colonialist goal. Lebensraum, manifest destiny, eretz yisrael, rhodesia are all different manifestations of the same monstrosity. Capitalisms need to devour and expand and devour and expand.
And Hamas would probably do the same thing as the ANC did in South Africa. People were clutching their pearls about “white genocide” as well back then (they still are lmfao) but it somehow never came to pass.
As a point. I’ve got nothing against Muslims, I just know it’s a eye catcher in this context. If that ‘slogan’ is hate speech and is bad (it is) then so is the other slogan. I made the point because you seem to think the other slogan is no big deal. But it is to some people. I won’t elaborate or I’ll probably get banned from this sub for having such a centralist/moderate attitude.
CF, please look at Zagorath’s comment. Also, do some research and you’ll find that these words and variations thereof have been used by Israelis as well for their purposes.
Palestinian use is about becoming free of oppression and genocide. Israeli use is about taking as much as they can from whoever they can with biblical justification which is more than questionable. Your slogan is plain provocation to violence and execution of a particular religious group.
You are assigning how people should interpret these things. We should try to understand how people do interpret things. And avoid things that are offensive.
I don’t think it should be criminal tho.
Perhaps if there wasn’t so much whipped-up stir about this phrase, including criminalisation for saying it, it would not provoke people to want to say it more. Imo if you coerce people you are going to get more push-back, whether openly or not.
I think there should be attention to the phrase, and education as to how it is interpreted to mean ‘death to Jews’. Just like people needed an education to understand why ‘all lives matter’ is offensive in the context of elevated killings of blacks by police. Someone using the n-word for blacks even if they consider it a harmless synonym doesn’t make it ok. Of course, It shouldn’t be illegal. But people should know how what they’re saying is interpreted. If they really want to go ahead and cause shit, it’s more likely to backfire against their cause anyway.
I think most people use the phrase to mean that Palestinians should be free in their land and not be under continuous attack. The interpretation you speak of is laboured. I believe jailing people for saying the ‘forbidden phrase’ is the real shit. As you’ll see from another post in this community, people are starting to get punished and even losing jobs for wearing a keffiyeh. So, will they start jailing us too for using non-verbal language deemed offensive?
Symbols mean different things to different people. Why use a symbol that has bad connotations to some? Even if you’re a Buddhist, you wouldn’t display a swastika in the West because you know it offends many. You would display a swastika knowing it offends if you are a Nazi supporter; and then you might claim it was a peace symbol as cover. Thats what using the phrase seems like. I would fire someone for wearing a swastika.
“From the Muslim to the guillotine.”? See, hate speech is bad.
The only one sharing hate speech around here is you.
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free.
The point is that slogan is considered hateful to some. It’s considered to be calling for terrible things. You probably don’t mean it that way (I hope), but knowing how offensive it is to others, why would you keep using it?
Because the people claiming they find it hateful are doing so performatively in order to restrict just criticism of their favourite country’s genocidal actions. Or are being earnest, but have been tricked into believing it is offensive by the former group. Either way, the outcome is a pro-genocide one.
Zagorath, succinctly expressed. Thank you.
No, it reinforces the notion that the Jews in Isreal are in existential danger and that leads to their right to defend themselves and that leads to their twisted justification of attacking Palestine civilians.
I’m confused. Your comment starts with “no”, and then basically restates what I said.
No because it’s not ‘performative’. They are offended at the call to kill all Jews (how they see the phrase). And then that muddies the water on Israeli ‘defense’. If others are ‘tricked’ into believing that meaning to the phrase, then the phrase has that meaning regardless. And people using it know what it is interpreted as. They only keep using it because they want to convey that meaning while. Like racist assholes saying ‘all lives matter’.
Right but that goes to the second category. There are two groups: the performative ones and the tricked ones. Because the phrase doesn’t mean “kill all Jews”. That’s a lie made up by Israel propaganda to justify the genocide.
“All lives matter” was a phrase deliberately used to undermine the notion that “black lives matter”. That’s not what’s going on here. “From the river to the sea” is the equivalent of black lives matter. It’s the call for freedom against oppression.
It’s not really a stretch tho is it. Chants of ‘death to Israel’, ‘death to America’ are common in the Arab world. Or do those have some nice meaning too?
Who gives a shit what settlers think?
from the moskva to the oder
Push the nazis back and over
would have been considered hateful by g*rmans during WW2. Death to pissrahell. Death to fascism everywhere.
After overcoming Nazi germany, the west supported the civilians of Germany - it did not wipe it Germany the map. What do you think Hamas would do if it could?
They wiped the german settlers off the map and sent them back to where they came from. That’s the comparison I was going for. All the settlers east of the Oder had to be resettled back in Germany proper. It’s important to realise the similarities, these fascist projects all have a settler-colonialist goal. Lebensraum, manifest destiny, eretz yisrael, rhodesia are all different manifestations of the same monstrosity. Capitalisms need to devour and expand and devour and expand.
And Hamas would probably do the same thing as the ANC did in South Africa. People were clutching their pearls about “white genocide” as well back then (they still are lmfao) but it somehow never came to pass.
There weren’t really Nazi settlers anywhere - it was all military expansion. And where would the Jewish people ‘go back’ to?
cont’d here
So why are you using it?
As a point. I’ve got nothing against Muslims, I just know it’s a eye catcher in this context. If that ‘slogan’ is hate speech and is bad (it is) then so is the other slogan. I made the point because you seem to think the other slogan is no big deal. But it is to some people. I won’t elaborate or I’ll probably get banned from this sub for having such a centralist/moderate attitude.
CF, please look at Zagorath’s comment. Also, do some research and you’ll find that these words and variations thereof have been used by Israelis as well for their purposes.
Palestinian use is about becoming free of oppression and genocide. Israeli use is about taking as much as they can from whoever they can with biblical justification which is more than questionable. Your slogan is plain provocation to violence and execution of a particular religious group.
You are assigning how people should interpret these things. We should try to understand how people do interpret things. And avoid things that are offensive.
I don’t think it should be criminal tho.
Perhaps if there wasn’t so much whipped-up stir about this phrase, including criminalisation for saying it, it would not provoke people to want to say it more. Imo if you coerce people you are going to get more push-back, whether openly or not.
I think there should be attention to the phrase, and education as to how it is interpreted to mean ‘death to Jews’. Just like people needed an education to understand why ‘all lives matter’ is offensive in the context of elevated killings of blacks by police. Someone using the n-word for blacks even if they consider it a harmless synonym doesn’t make it ok. Of course, It shouldn’t be illegal. But people should know how what they’re saying is interpreted. If they really want to go ahead and cause shit, it’s more likely to backfire against their cause anyway.
I think most people use the phrase to mean that Palestinians should be free in their land and not be under continuous attack. The interpretation you speak of is laboured. I believe jailing people for saying the ‘forbidden phrase’ is the real shit. As you’ll see from another post in this community, people are starting to get punished and even losing jobs for wearing a keffiyeh. So, will they start jailing us too for using non-verbal language deemed offensive?
Symbols mean different things to different people. Why use a symbol that has bad connotations to some? Even if you’re a Buddhist, you wouldn’t display a swastika in the West because you know it offends many. You would display a swastika knowing it offends if you are a Nazi supporter; and then you might claim it was a peace symbol as cover. Thats what using the phrase seems like. I would fire someone for wearing a swastika.