First off, I’m a progressive. Second, I lived in China for 6 months and I’m telling you the statistic is wrong. I have first hand experience among the many many many rural areas that are basically third world. China historically reports garbage numbers and this one of them. Shocking I know! How could they!
Because I learned China doesn’t report accurate numbers all the time. They have state controlled media since the 40s. I’m a real life person who studied China, lived there, learned from natives about what is really going on. Put yourself in my shoes. Hypothetically, how could you explain this experience differently?
And how does you going to China for six months support any of those claims? Especially when you’re just brushing off the person actually from China (aka, a “native” as you’re racist ass calls him)
I think it’s good to either respond to people in good faith or, on a forum, simply ban them if good faith can’t reach them, but that doesn’t make insulting someone “aligned with fascism”.
Do you think China educated unwilling old people who have a job like farming in the last ten years? Why? So they can read a book before they die? There’s no point…
I do think China has done a great job of educating the younger generations. And with that many people, it’s a system producing genius after genius. That part is impressive enough and better than the US system.
But China is known for producing fake numbers to always promote their control, patriotism among their people, reduce revolutionaries…
They have completely state controlled media. No independent journalism. Kind of hard to take any of that as a scientifically proven statistic. Do you disagree?
Nah, you’re repeating far-right talking points. You have no counter-evidence other than your belief that underdeveloped rural areas cannot possibly achieve high literacy rates, when exactly that has happened everytime socialism has been established around the world. Further, in recent decades China has been focusing on the urban/rural divide.
First off, I don’t have any right wing, let alone far right propaganda in my life. I’m a progressive. Do you think a MAGA idiot would go live in China themselves? Obviously not.
I don’t actually need evidence to be correct, because I saw it first hand. But I probably can prove it anyways. The simplest way: there are multiple definitions of literacy. They now call it functioning literacy in some cases. Others get very specific such as can they read a newspaper or write a statement about a topic? I do believe China is achieving great things with their younger generations. That, I also saw first hand. Although, they conveniently rewrite history as well. Completely covering up the atrocities the government has caused. That is pretty unforgivable.
Anyways, the older generation is filled with people who are still illiterate. They are not in school. They are not learning. They are working. And mostly happy by the way. Illiteracy is not a criticism on well being. That was someone else’s argument that “they must be doing well because they’ve achieved so much LITERACY.” Those are the happiest people I’ve ever met. Willing to share their food and home with total strangers. Their jobs and their lives and their happiness do not require literacy. That is why they will never change. Only once the younger generation has outlived the older long enough to reach a 97% rate could we call it the achievement you are wanting to believe.
Anyways, none of this has anything to do with my initial statement. Both systems suck! Everyone else is throwing these random statements such as literacy to try to change the argument. Draw it into a which is better contest. It’s just like red and blue politics in America. Fuck all that. We the people, everywhere, deserve better than either of these power and control hungry psychos would have for us. Period.
Yes. China has many expats. The information was revealed to the world and the Chinese government’s response? Control the Internet, all foreign media, all history books, etc.
These are extremely well known topics across the globe. Don’t take my word for it lol.
Hahahaha come live in New Zealand you fucking idiot, see what the people think about our great system. Soaring unemployment, housing crisis, cost of living crisis, corruption, austerity, mass exodus to Australia. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You do need evidence to back your claims. Literacy rates were chosen as merely one example to prove the effectiveness of socialism in China at dramatically improving people’s lives. One person’s anecdote, especially when said person has no idea about basic socialist concepts like idealism vs. materialism, is not at all sufficient.
The truth is that capitalism sucks, and socialism works. You haven’t demonstrated that you even understand what these systems are, and have been confidently incorrect when others have explained them to you.
You add more invented problems like the idea that the CPC is “hiding atrocities.” Why should anyone take you seriously?
You don’t think the CCP* is hiding history from their people? It’s ironic you think I’m confidentially incorrect when I know for a fact you are. I don’t see this as an argument at all. This is me playing teacher to you so you can go research the many topics covered here that you don’t seem to understand. My original argument is simple. China’s system sucks. The US system sucks.
To think you can even define China’s system as socialism is ridiculous. No modern super power has an economy or government that abides by a single definition.
It is you and others here who have tried to change the argument to something you think you understand to try to “win.” It’s honestly exhausting. I’ve rewritten my thesis about 20 times and it’s still being ignored.
The irony: I like socialism. You people are simply too caught up in your own ego or something to let that sink in.
See, the key flaw here is that I’ve come to the conclusions I have precisely because I’ve researched these topics. You have been given scholarly sources proving you exactly wrong, and your only response is “nuh-uh.” That’s not acceptable proof in any setting, even a comment forum.
As for China’s system, it’s socialist because public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. It has a highly particular socialist model fit for China’s present conditions, but it is plainly and simply socialist as fits the general characteristics of socialism.
Your thesis is being ignored because of 2 reasons: 1, it’s wrong, and 2, your only source is your own word. When scholarly sources debunking your claims are presented, you just deflect.
You don’t even seem to know what socialism is, and you seem happy to say a socialist country sucks, so your own word saying you like socialism rings extraordinarily hollow.
Explain to me how killing 30-50 million people is acceptable in this shining example of socialism. How about genocide? Massacre? What about Tibet? What about the impending invasion in Taiwan? Are these the everyday normal citizens taking their “control” over their system and saying GO FUCKING LEAVE A TRAIL OF BLOOD HERE AND HERE AND HERE?
It’s very very easy to point out that China has a brutal and immoral system with very common sense examples.
I just prefer my personal version because my memories of China were wonderful. As many Chinese visiting the US would agree. But the truth is obvious.
Oh, gish-gallop! Throwing random bullshit at us with absolutely no sources in the hopes that it will tire us.
Explain to me how killing 30-50 million people is acceptable in this shining example of socialism
Assuming you mean via famine, famine in China was not deliberate, and was common pre-socialism. Socialism ended famine in China, and as a result life expectancy doubled:
How about genocide?
There is no genocide committed by the PRC.
Massacre?
What exactly are you referring to here? The crackdown on the western-backed Beijing riots back in 1989?
What about Tibet?
Tibet was a torturous feudal system built on slavery, backed by the CIA to oppose the rising socialist system in China. The PLA liberated Tibet, and now quality of life for the working classes in Tibet is skyrocketing.
What about the impending invasion in Taiwan?
There is no “impending invasion of Taiwan.” Taiwan is internationally recognized as a part of the PRC, and the CPC is waiting on Taiwan to willingly fully reunify with the mainland of their own volition. The US presence on Taiwan makes this difficult.
Are these the everyday normal citizens taking their “control” over their system and saying GO FUCKING LEAVE A TRAIL OF BLOOD HERE AND HERE AND HERE?
It seems most like you support feudalism, slavery, torture, and othet far-right institutions and governments. Yes, ending famine, protecting socialism, and liberating the working classes is worker democracy in practice.
It’s very very easy to point out that China has a brutal and immoral system with very common sense examples.
If your “common sense” is “actually, feudalism and slavery is good” then you need to reconsider your “common sense.”
I just prefer my personal version because my memories of China were wonderful. As many Chinese visiting the US would agree. But the truth is obvious.
Oh, gish-gallop! Throwing random bullshit at us with absolutely no sources in the hopes that it will tire us.
Explain to me how killing 30-50 million people is acceptable in this shining example of socialism
Assuming you mean via famine, famine in China was not deliberate, and was common pre-socialism. Socialism ended famine in China, and as a result life expectancy doubled:
I just prefer my personal version because my memories of China were wonderful. As many Chinese visiting the US would agree. But the truth is obvious.
The truth is indeed obvious, that’s why you can’t source any of your bullshit.
How about 30-50 million dead from starvation while trying to implement communism under Mao? How about Tiananmen Square?
Do you realize that the government punishes those who bring it up and leave it out of the history books for the younger generations?
What about Uyghur genocide?
You can walk around the campus of a Chinese university, ask person after person about the Tiananmen Square massacre and no one knows what the hell you’re talking about.
You think this is the shining example of socialism that should be implemented across the globe?
You mean the one a coalition of multiple Islamic countries investigated and all agreed wasn’t a genocide? The one the UN also investigated and did not call a genocide? The one for which Wikipedia changed its article name to “Mass detention of Uyghurs” because there wasn’t sufficient grounds to call it a genocide and doesn’t give a body count? The one which, despite allegedly occurring in a country with very high rates of cell phone ownership and internet access, has produced no evidence of kill sites or mass graves?
I’ll seriously consider what you’ve said with supporting evidence. It’s the first I’ve heard of this. I’m open to being taught.
One of my experiences in China was witnessing an underground Muslim gathering and religious ceremony. We were warned about why they must operate in secret due to potential government action.
If we do change the statement from genocide to persecution, I suppose China gets a better profile, but I don’t think it is a talking point that “China’s socialism is better than US Capitalism because of their religious freedom.”
My initial argument is still that both systems suck.
This one of the markers I would use for a “good” system:
If we do change the statement from genocide to persecution, I suppose China gets a better profile, but I don’t think it is a talking point that “China’s socialism is better than US Capitalism because of their religious freedom.”
The US is actively militarily aiding Israel in its genocide of Palestinians. So yes, there is a basis to decide which country is better on the basis of “who treats Muslims better,” and it is China, because China isn’t genociding them.
Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland… these are the leaders in this index. How?
Imperialism. All the countries you listed are NATO members.
I already gave my sources on Xinjiang, so I won’t retread old ground.
The nordic countries thay have high scores on the IAHD index are a part of western imperialism. They subsidize their safety nets by plundering the surplus value of the south, and rely on institutions like the IMF and NATO to protect them and facilitate their plunder. China is not imperialist.
You want to know who taught me about these things? My Chinese native guide that I traveled with to Tibet, Beijing, and all over rural / urban areas inbetween.
But I guess this real person talking to you with actual experience will just disappear in your thoughts as a nothingburger.
Funny how, when they disagree with you, Chinese people can’t be trusted because they’re all kept in the dark by their government, but when they (allegedly) agree with you, they can’t be questioned
Literacy rate by country, 2026. China is at 97%. Get out of the 20th century and turn off Fox News.
First off, I’m a progressive. Second, I lived in China for 6 months and I’m telling you the statistic is wrong. I have first hand experience among the many many many rural areas that are basically third world. China historically reports garbage numbers and this one of them. Shocking I know! How could they!
How exactly would you spending a few months in China in any way affect whether the statistic was correct?
Because I learned China doesn’t report accurate numbers all the time. They have state controlled media since the 40s. I’m a real life person who studied China, lived there, learned from natives about what is really going on. Put yourself in my shoes. Hypothetically, how could you explain this experience differently?
And how does you going to China for six months support any of those claims? Especially when you’re just brushing off the person actually from China (aka, a “native” as you’re racist ass calls him)
I call myself a native Californian. Maybe it’s a cultural thing that makes you think it’s racist?
Honestly you’ve gotten just about as toxic as the other guy. I’m concerned a good faith argument is no longer possible. I hope you prove me wrong.
Fuck off. You were never arguing in good faith in the first place, and you deserve vastly more toxicity than you’re getting
I only argue in good faith. The very idea that people deserve toxicity is more aligned with fascism than anything I’ve said.
I think it’s good to either respond to people in good faith or, on a forum, simply ban them if good faith can’t reach them, but that doesn’t make insulting someone “aligned with fascism”.
Lol. “I only argue in good faith” immediately before saying something wildly bad faith
A mix of you being racist and likely lying.
You lived in rural China when? 25 years ago? I don’t think you’re aware of the pace of change that’s been happening.
Less than 12 years ago.
Do you think nothing has changed in an entire decade?
Do you think China educated unwilling old people who have a job like farming in the last ten years? Why? So they can read a book before they die? There’s no point…
I do think China has done a great job of educating the younger generations. And with that many people, it’s a system producing genius after genius. That part is impressive enough and better than the US system.
But China is known for producing fake numbers to always promote their control, patriotism among their people, reduce revolutionaries…
They have completely state controlled media. No independent journalism. Kind of hard to take any of that as a scientifically proven statistic. Do you disagree?
Bro just straight up called old people useless eaters lmao
It’s known!!!
Fucking bird, stop listening to him, this is a very stupid bird.
You’re going to sit there and tell me that state controlled reporting doesn’t influence their numbers? LOL do some research bro my God
“That can’t be true because I don’t think it is and China Bad”
The poverty eradication campaign alone has made a dramatic difference, let alone the electrification of China and expansion in solar and EVs.
Nah, you’re repeating far-right talking points. You have no counter-evidence other than your belief that underdeveloped rural areas cannot possibly achieve high literacy rates, when exactly that has happened everytime socialism has been established around the world. Further, in recent decades China has been focusing on the urban/rural divide.
First off, I don’t have any right wing, let alone far right propaganda in my life. I’m a progressive. Do you think a MAGA idiot would go live in China themselves? Obviously not.
I don’t actually need evidence to be correct, because I saw it first hand. But I probably can prove it anyways. The simplest way: there are multiple definitions of literacy. They now call it functioning literacy in some cases. Others get very specific such as can they read a newspaper or write a statement about a topic? I do believe China is achieving great things with their younger generations. That, I also saw first hand. Although, they conveniently rewrite history as well. Completely covering up the atrocities the government has caused. That is pretty unforgivable.
Anyways, the older generation is filled with people who are still illiterate. They are not in school. They are not learning. They are working. And mostly happy by the way. Illiteracy is not a criticism on well being. That was someone else’s argument that “they must be doing well because they’ve achieved so much LITERACY.” Those are the happiest people I’ve ever met. Willing to share their food and home with total strangers. Their jobs and their lives and their happiness do not require literacy. That is why they will never change. Only once the younger generation has outlived the older long enough to reach a 97% rate could we call it the achievement you are wanting to believe.
Anyways, none of this has anything to do with my initial statement. Both systems suck! Everyone else is throwing these random statements such as literacy to try to change the argument. Draw it into a which is better contest. It’s just like red and blue politics in America. Fuck all that. We the people, everywhere, deserve better than either of these power and control hungry psychos would have for us. Period.
Lol. “Water? Whats that?” Says fish
But that you somehow know about
Yes. China has many expats. The information was revealed to the world and the Chinese government’s response? Control the Internet, all foreign media, all history books, etc.
These are extremely well known topics across the globe. Don’t take my word for it lol.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1127087/
https://www.britannica.com/event/Tiananmen-Square-incident
https://ieres.elliott.gwu.edu/project/chinas-genocide-against-uyghurs/
https://www.columbia.edu/~qc2218/history.html
Lol. And you claim you’re “progressive”
Ya. The Bernie kind. Incredible isn’t it?
I truly love New Zealand’s system by the way. It’s a shining example in the face of the rest of the world’s failure.
Here’s a market that I feel is very relevant for a “good system.”
https://hdr.undp.org/inequality-adjusted-human-development-index#/indicies/IHDI
Do you agree?
Hahahaha come live in New Zealand you fucking idiot, see what the people think about our great system. Soaring unemployment, housing crisis, cost of living crisis, corruption, austerity, mass exodus to Australia. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Lol. This has to be a bit
You do need evidence to back your claims. Literacy rates were chosen as merely one example to prove the effectiveness of socialism in China at dramatically improving people’s lives. One person’s anecdote, especially when said person has no idea about basic socialist concepts like idealism vs. materialism, is not at all sufficient.
The truth is that capitalism sucks, and socialism works. You haven’t demonstrated that you even understand what these systems are, and have been confidently incorrect when others have explained them to you.
You add more invented problems like the idea that the CPC is “hiding atrocities.” Why should anyone take you seriously?
You don’t think the CCP* is hiding history from their people? It’s ironic you think I’m confidentially incorrect when I know for a fact you are. I don’t see this as an argument at all. This is me playing teacher to you so you can go research the many topics covered here that you don’t seem to understand. My original argument is simple. China’s system sucks. The US system sucks.
To think you can even define China’s system as socialism is ridiculous. No modern super power has an economy or government that abides by a single definition.
It is you and others here who have tried to change the argument to something you think you understand to try to “win.” It’s honestly exhausting. I’ve rewritten my thesis about 20 times and it’s still being ignored.
The irony: I like socialism. You people are simply too caught up in your own ego or something to let that sink in.
Elsewhere you’re claiming that you know about all of the evil China does because Chinese people told you
See, the key flaw here is that I’ve come to the conclusions I have precisely because I’ve researched these topics. You have been given scholarly sources proving you exactly wrong, and your only response is “nuh-uh.” That’s not acceptable proof in any setting, even a comment forum.
As for China’s system, it’s socialist because public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy and the working classes control the state. It has a highly particular socialist model fit for China’s present conditions, but it is plainly and simply socialist as fits the general characteristics of socialism.
Your thesis is being ignored because of 2 reasons: 1, it’s wrong, and 2, your only source is your own word. When scholarly sources debunking your claims are presented, you just deflect.
You don’t even seem to know what socialism is, and you seem happy to say a socialist country sucks, so your own word saying you like socialism rings extraordinarily hollow.
Explain to me how killing 30-50 million people is acceptable in this shining example of socialism. How about genocide? Massacre? What about Tibet? What about the impending invasion in Taiwan? Are these the everyday normal citizens taking their “control” over their system and saying GO FUCKING LEAVE A TRAIL OF BLOOD HERE AND HERE AND HERE?
It’s very very easy to point out that China has a brutal and immoral system with very common sense examples.
I just prefer my personal version because my memories of China were wonderful. As many Chinese visiting the US would agree. But the truth is obvious.
by that logic, over 100 million people died because of the united states; so it’s still better
Lol. “Explain how something that hasn’t happened is ok!”
Because it hasn’t happened, dumbass. How is New Zealand nuking Canada in the future ok?
Oh, gish-gallop! Throwing random bullshit at us with absolutely no sources in the hopes that it will tire us.
Assuming you mean via famine, famine in China was not deliberate, and was common pre-socialism. Socialism ended famine in China, and as a result life expectancy doubled:
There is no genocide committed by the PRC.
What exactly are you referring to here? The crackdown on the western-backed Beijing riots back in 1989?
Tibet was a torturous feudal system built on slavery, backed by the CIA to oppose the rising socialist system in China. The PLA liberated Tibet, and now quality of life for the working classes in Tibet is skyrocketing.
There is no “impending invasion of Taiwan.” Taiwan is internationally recognized as a part of the PRC, and the CPC is waiting on Taiwan to willingly fully reunify with the mainland of their own volition. The US presence on Taiwan makes this difficult.
It seems most like you support feudalism, slavery, torture, and othet far-right institutions and governments. Yes, ending famine, protecting socialism, and liberating the working classes is worker democracy in practice.
If your “common sense” is “actually, feudalism and slavery is good” then you need to reconsider your “common sense.”
Assuming you mean via famine, famine in China was not deliberate, and was common pre-socialism. Socialism ended famine in China, and as a result life expectancy doubled:
The truth is indeed obvious, that’s why you can’t source any of your bullshit.
Which atrocities were those?
Obviously that abortion tower. But yeah totally not going off any right wing talking points 😂
It’s a bipartisan abortion tower, so they don’t see it as right wing, because they don’t realize that both parties are right wing.
How about 30-50 million dead from starvation while trying to implement communism under Mao? How about Tiananmen Square?
Do you realize that the government punishes those who bring it up and leave it out of the history books for the younger generations?
What about Uyghur genocide?
You can walk around the campus of a Chinese university, ask person after person about the Tiananmen Square massacre and no one knows what the hell you’re talking about.
You think this is the shining example of socialism that should be implemented across the globe?
No thank you.
You mean the one a coalition of multiple Islamic countries investigated and all agreed wasn’t a genocide? The one the UN also investigated and did not call a genocide? The one for which Wikipedia changed its article name to “Mass detention of Uyghurs” because there wasn’t sufficient grounds to call it a genocide and doesn’t give a body count? The one which, despite allegedly occurring in a country with very high rates of cell phone ownership and internet access, has produced no evidence of kill sites or mass graves?
I’ll seriously consider what you’ve said with supporting evidence. It’s the first I’ve heard of this. I’m open to being taught.
One of my experiences in China was witnessing an underground Muslim gathering and religious ceremony. We were warned about why they must operate in secret due to potential government action.
If we do change the statement from genocide to persecution, I suppose China gets a better profile, but I don’t think it is a talking point that “China’s socialism is better than US Capitalism because of their religious freedom.”
My initial argument is still that both systems suck.
This one of the markers I would use for a “good” system:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_inequality-adjusted_Human_Development_Index
The Inequality Adjusted Human Development Index.
Iceland, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland… these are the leaders in this index. How? A high-welfare free market economy.
This is capitalism but with a foundation of human rights built on high taxes using examples like net wealth tax.
The US is actively militarily aiding Israel in its genocide of Palestinians. So yes, there is a basis to decide which country is better on the basis of “who treats Muslims better,” and it is China, because China isn’t genociding them.
Imperialism. All the countries you listed are NATO members.
I already gave my sources on Xinjiang, so I won’t retread old ground.
The nordic countries thay have high scores on the IAHD index are a part of western imperialism. They subsidize their safety nets by plundering the surplus value of the south, and rely on institutions like the IMF and NATO to protect them and facilitate their plunder. China is not imperialist.
Yup, that’s what I thought: you’re as propagandized as everyone else in the imperial core. Just as propagandized as I was 20 years ago.
You want to know who taught me about these things? My Chinese native guide that I traveled with to Tibet, Beijing, and all over rural / urban areas inbetween.
But I guess this real person talking to you with actual experience will just disappear in your thoughts as a nothingburger.
Fine. Tragic, but fine.
Funny how, when they disagree with you, Chinese people can’t be trusted because they’re all kept in the dark by their government, but when they (allegedly) agree with you, they can’t be questioned