Didn’t really expect much from DrivingUk but honestly the amount of downvotes shocked me. God forbid people go out at night dressed normally without full on high vis.
Reddit Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/drivingUK/comments/1r8fkfo/comment/o65j18p/
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Literally “look at what she was wearing. She was asking for it!”
Obviously, it’s a good idea to look out for giant hulking death machines when your environment is crawling with them. That in no way means the blame should be focused on the victims of the death machines. Fucking car brains.
Also I just watched the video and I would be very surprised if that situation would have been any different even in broad daylight. Cars regularly make turns like that without looking for pedestrians at all. The OP even admits that they didn’t look properly at the crossing in the post.
That first line is certifiably unhinged.
Yes, the driver should be careful. But if you can’t even acknowledge that someone wearing dark clothing at night is extremely difficult to see until your headlights/a street lamp is on them, then you’re just trying to be obtuse.
Victim blaming is victim blaming. Kindly fuck off with your smooth ass car brained bullshit.
I guess it’s a good thing that headlights point in front of you then and illuminate where you’re going
now, if you have those shitty fucking LED headlights that are so bright you have to aim them down so you can’t see things at chest height, that’s user error
Wear Something reflective when it’s dark if you value your life
This is ingrained into kids since they are 3 years old in Norway
Finland here, third gen professional driver, dad had “Gentleman of the Road” taped to the back of his taxi-van. You couldn’t find a more patient driver (unless he was driving us to a bus and we’re running late or if the liquor store was closing.)
No matter how carefully you drive, human brains just can not pick out a dark thing that’s practically stationary against another dark thing when you’re in a vehicle moving >50kmh.
And our kids walk to the school by themselves if it’s less than 3km iirc, and lots of those roads don’t have sidewalks. Lots do, most probably, but in rural areas not every road has a sidewalk. And it’s dark most of the year.
So you really get taught to wear at least a small reflector. It’s not because of inconsiderate car-brained drivers. It’s because humans don’t have HD thermal vision that keeps perfectly up at high speeds.
This video might illustrate it better. (Pun intended.)
Someone with a reflector can be spotted roughly 150m away, whereas some one without one from about 40 meters. Going 60km/h you travel 40m in 2.5 seconds. The average reaction time for general road users is put around 1.5s. Leaving you a whopping one second (1s) to slam your breaks, and even then you won’t make a meaningful difference. Whereas the driver seeing someone with a reflector has almost 10 seconds, leaving them with 8.5 to reduce speed and dodge the pedestrian a bit.
So while I don’t own a car, but an ebike, and take public transport and am against car-brained culture, in this instance it’s you demanding everyone in countries with long winters spend all of their driving time driving about as fast as one can run, in order to have enough reaction time to avoid pedestrians without reflectors. And I think you understand that while we all dream of better public transport and less car-brain, in this instance wearing a tiny reflector you literally get for free from most places (my bus pass holder is one, for instance, because hauling hailing down buses is a lot more effective with a reflector than a dark mitten) can’t be such a bother. Also you can just take it off when you get to where your going and pocket it if it so bothers you.
Also, what about pets?
Most pets nowadays here have either reflective “clothing” or leashes/bands with small leds. And a lot of the time you just spot a dog in a reflective harness and perhaps a leash hanging in midair until you see the person.
“Why should pedestrians have to make themselves visible, it’s cars’ fault” is basically the same argument as “I had the right-of-way, that car shouldn’t have hit me”.
Technically true? Sure! But useless in practice. Stop wearing all black at night, and don’t fucking chase a car that almost hit you.
Stay safe out there beautiful people. The world needs all of you to keep making it a better place.
There’s two sides to this really. A failing on two fronts.
First off, the idiot driving should be paying more attention. You have lights, and I doubt the pedestrian is wearing a vantage black jumpsuit with the hoodie pulled up.
Secondly, pedestrians should be paying attention in general. It’s not a carbrain response to say “you should be paying attention to your surroundings” it’s just common sense. Would you cross train tracks without making sure a train isn’t crossing? Would you hope a bus is going to stop on a dime for you?
Both need to smarten the fuck up.
The driving infrastructure is in place and it’s hostile to pedestrians (and many others). People can act all smug about what should and shouldn’t be all the way into the grave.
We can either take reasonable steps and vote in parties who’ll improve the infrastructure or we can take unreasonable steps such as tactical urbanism where we dig pot holes and leave shit on the road to deter drivers.
I walk early in the morning wearing all black. I am aware that I’m effectively invisible to cars. I drive too. That’s neither of our faults so I make efforts not to be hit by cars. Cars have been told that they’re allowed to drive at a given speed (60km/h) and have no reason to expect to lookout for my black clad arse on the road.
Fuck Reddit and Fuck Spez.
As someone from Sweden. Where the dark night is very long in the winter. Do wear a reflective strap or something so cars can see you…
Wearing all black in the middle of the night and crossing the road is not a fantastic idea. I would not expect a car to see me until it’s too late. Don’t be an idiot. Make sure you can be seen.
Sincerely. Someone that bikes more than they drive a car
It’s good advice. But when it’s coming from drivers it comes of as shifting responsibility to VRUs, or victim blaming.
Drivers have responsibilities too. Pay attention to the road, get off your phone, drive at slower speed if you can’t see what’s in front of you.
I’m going to go against the groupthink here.
If I’m driving at night I sometimes come across people wearing specifically dark clothing walking in the street or crossing in poorly illuminated areas, seemly unaware of the cars.
I too, wish we lived in a less car centric society, and I know if I hit them it’s my fault. But wearing all black and walking in poorly illuminated streets unaware of traffic is profoundly stupid.
Im not saying they have to don hi-vis, but the all back is certainly a choice.
Well shit I guess I need to go get a fuschia tracksuit for my night walks. A whole different set of drivers can harass me for a new reason.
IMO it’s fine to wear dark, but be aware that drivers will have a harder time seeing you and you should be careful crossing the street.
Just don’t cross a road without looking and you should be good.
Fuck off. Email or call your city council member and advocate for better pedestrian infrastructure. Do it, right now.
I live in the Netherlands. We have excellent pedestrian infrastructure, I can safely walk anywhere.
We also raise our kids explaining them to always look both ways, to never suddenly cross the road and never to assume a driver has actually seen you. It’s basic road safety, you so the same for crossing a bicycle path or railroad tracks.
It’s an insult to tell someone to look before crossing the street in a fuckcars comm. Like no shit. Why do you think we’re all in here. It’s really frustrating because accounting for the externalities of cars is the normative state of being for us, nobody is in here to fool themselves about that fact, we’re here because of it. At least I am. I’m not really down in this thread to entertain the myth of the bumbling jay as some sage counter-argument. It’s not.
Part of the problem is many winter coats and a pair of jeans will look all black at night. Couple that with high speeds, poor lighting, and parked cars blocking sightlines and the problem gets hard to blame one specific factor. IMO its mostly a roadway design problem but it is an unfortunate reality that you have be very alert at night and assume every car cannot see you.
Certainly I don’t think the onus is on the pedestrian to solve to overall problem, which exists because of the things you point out. I’m only saying the pedestrian is responsible for their own safety.
A line I’ve used before is “It won’t be your fault, but it will be your problem.”
Pedestrians should be able to walk on the roads. It should be down to cars to not hit them. However, when they screw up. The car owner has a dented car, you have shatter bones and organs.
It’s against the grain here, but my personal view is that all school kits should be given a family size pack of high Vis strap vests and taught the risks. It’s amazing how effective an educated 8 year old can be at changing behaviours.
Deer, raccoons, and the billion animals killed every year should also do more to be visible.
Or you know… just snap on one of these on your arm when you go out in the dark. Or have something similar dangling out of your coat pocket.
And before I’m accused of anything. I bike and walk far more than I drive.
To me this is defending motonormativity.
I also walk and bike at night, sometimes on multiuse paths with pedestrians, dog walkers and cyclists. Dogs don’t have lights and are sometimes unpredictable. You know what I do when I’m cycling on a shared path, instead of expecting everyone to flash like a christmas tree? I slow down! This way I can react before hitting a pedestrian or a dog. I’m the one going much faster than them. I’m the one that has to be careful.
Once I nearly got hit by a truck passing me on a countryside road. It was day time but it was also raining. I was wearing a bright orange t-shirt. But apparently I wasn’t visible enough?! In all the cases. I’m sure it was my fault for existing and not taking all the necessary precautions to make sure I can be seen from space and avoid getting hit.
I don’t carry reflective hardware and flashing lights with me just in case I have to walk somewhere in the dark. Sometimes I’m walking a few km in my sister’s town in the dark or in the rain. Sometimes I’m walking in another city, or country. I’m not carrying “safety equipment” with me everywhere I go just because some idiot motorists wants to go the speed limit in the dark without regard to other road users, or animals. Whatever happens, it will always be my fault for being there outside of a car anyway. Did I have headphones on? Maybe I was wearing dark makeup? I came out of nowhere! Or maybe I was not walking or cycling at the right place or at the right time.
Motorists are the one that drive a multi ton lethal vehicle, sometimes in the dark, and everyone not in one is expected to take precautions against them.
Motonormativity.
EDIT: Wear reflective gear if you want to. It’s not a bad idea. But it SHOULD NOT be expected.
This is more a problem of city design than driver behaviour. Even when conscientious cars slow down to better perceive on streets designed for higher speeds assholes will pull dangerous maneuvers splitting attention and becoming more dangerous to pedestrians to get around conscientious drivers in the interest of getting to their destination at their expected time creating new and less predictable hazards.
For the meantime until this is systemically fixed it can be rolling the dice to step out during peak times of light transition like pre dawn or twilight dusk wearing particular shades of clothing. It is not strictly “carbrained” to take precautionary measures in a hostile system any more than it is “paranoid” to bring safety gear to a backwoods hike. You adapt for the environment you’re in not the one you hope to have.
Until real civic engagement creates better infrastructure and stricter limits for vehicles it is not victim blaming to say it’s a safety hazard or to treat it like we’re talking about rape. If you can’t be seen at the speed traffic that is tacitly endorsed by enforcement and culturally expected to move it isn’t directly someone’s choice to hit you. There is no selection process as they actively trying not to hit you and frankly I believe it weakens the argument to draw that comparison.
Happened to me couple of weeks ago. It was late, I was wearing dark clothes but I was in a pedestrian area and the crossing was well illuminated. I start crossing and I see a car heading my way on the second lane. He slams though the speed bump without touching brakes, I stop knowing that he doesn’t see me or doesn’t care, he notices me and breaks suddenly. Then he rolls down the window and says “I didn’t see you”. Fucking idiot.
In my opinion, if you’re driving though a crossing in a pedestrian area it’s up to you to make sure it’s free. It’s like driving though a sidewalk. If your going too fast to see if someone is walking you have to slow down. It’s “I only go when I’m sure I can”, not “I go unless I notice I can’t”. I’m not going to wear a reflective west everyone I go because some guy likes to drive fast and has poor night vision.
As I bicyclist I never feel like I have trouble spotting pedestrians at night, no matter what they’re wearing, even though I have significantly less lights on my bike than a car has. Maybe because I try to stay aware, and slow down if I feel like my speed starts to endanger other people. On the other hand, in the past two years I have almost been driven straight into four times, in the middle of the day:
- I was riding in the bike lane, when a car exiting from a side road forgot to check whether it was clear, and instead continued straight ahead. Car had a yield line.
- I was riding inside a roundabout, when a car tried to enter, almost hitting me.
- I was riding in the same roundabout, when a bus forgot to check for traffic, swinging left (going against the direction of traffic) as if it was a regular intersection, and almost hitting me. This is a tiny roundabout, so this is technically the way a bus is supposed to navigate it, but obviously only once it is empty.
- I was riding down the road (no bike lane) when a huge lorry suddenly turned from the other lane, going straight towards me while yelling. I still have no idea what was going on there.
If someone is distracted or otherwise driving unsafely, it doesn’t matter what you wear. Unfortunately, a lot of people are using their phones while driving, going above the speed limit, not slowing down when conditions are bad or simply not treating driving with the needed respect.
As a girl, a defining moment for me, was when I heard about an exhibition showcasing what rape victims were wearing when they were raped. Some were wearing children’s-sized nightdresses and ugly waterproof clothing. I think a similar exhibition showing what pedestrians and cyclists were wearing, as they were run down, would be an eye-opener for many people. I try to be reasonably careful, both as a woman and as a vulnerable road user, but I have long ago decided not to treat my fellow citizens as potential rapists or murderers.
What personal safety precautions you take when you’re in a vulnerable position, is a personal matter. When your actions endanger other people, it becomes a public matter.
On a bicycle, you’re out in the same environment as pedestrians and your eyes are attuned to the light level.
Motorists are in an enclosed cabin, the things they look at are predominantly sources of light - the dashboard, traffic signals, or the reflection of their headlights off objects in the environment.
A motorist’s pupils are contracted, so they have perception of contrast in poor light conditions.
yep
all of those things, however, are issues that the driver must overcome since they chose to put themselves in that position.
I have no trouble seeing out of my nearly two decades old car with halogen headlights and a dim interior
Considering this is fuck cars there are so many carbrained comments here. Slow the fuck down if you can’t see while driving.
Isn’t there some rule about driving slower when the visibility is poor (such as at night)?
I like to point out that if you can’t see a person wearing black in time, then you can’t see deer in time, or a fallen tree, or a broken-down vehicle, or a garbage bin. It’s not the world’s responsibility to get out of the way when you’re operating your vehicle.
Saying this generally makes drivers very angry. (Well, angrier.)
This is simply incorrect.
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Deer are very visible at night due to their reflective eyes, coat (which is not black) and movement. They can be spotted at >150m distance with high beams on. The reason they (and other wildlife) are dangerous is because they can jump into the road at the last moment from behind cover.
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Stationary items are usually a very low threat since the driver has a long time to spot them. Bigger ones (such as a tree, bin or car) are also inherently more visible. Also, the worst case is damage to the vehicle.
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Adding on, it is usually mandatory for broken down/stopped vehicles to have their hazards on and put out a warning triangle ahead if they are in the road.
As an intelligent being, you are ultimately responsible for your own continued safety. The good news however is that most drivers try to avoid hitting pedestrians.
If you spend a lot of time around traffic at night, a simple reflector tag does wonders to increase your visibility and lets you take more space.
I live in Wisconsin. There are tons of deer here. I know wherefore I speak when I say, if you think that deer are all easily visible, you’re Just-Worlding, or kidding yourself. They’re not always looking at you; sometimes oncoming headlights hide them. Sometimes the road curves, and your headlights don’t illuminate them until the last second. Somehow, drivers don’t see them, and there are always roadkill deer on the side of the highway every few miles in season.
But that reminds me of a creature that drivers talk about in near-mysterious terms— black ice. That is usually visible, if you slow down enough to pay attention. It looks like wet pavement.
Just sayin’, it’s not a bad idea to be visible when walking, but the person engaging in the inherently dangerous activity (driving) has the moral responsibility should something bad happen. It also happens to be a good idea to slow down and not overdrive your headlights.
(My college roommate’s brother died that way.)
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Every time I visit reddit now, regardless of subreddit, I interact with the cream of the crop. I remember 15y ago it was this rather niche website where you could easily have insightful conversations. It’s now a nazi kindergarten
