What’s a little extra 5 or 10 mph on the clock?
Not surprising. After living for ten years in the US, I would say that Americans are among the worst drivers in any developed country. Really awful behaviour all around.
In my US state of Texas, speed studies set the speed limit based on a 85th percentile rule. They assume that people will basically ignore the speed limit and drive the speed they feel is safe. That’s why we have highways with 85 mph speed limits.
https://www.txdot.gov/safety/driving-laws/speed-limits/speed-zone-studies.html
That’s not a bad strategy. Driving slowly on slow roads or in adverse conditions and fast on highways seems rational to me. What is the point of making a road that is specifically designed for high speed and then putting a limit on it? The speed limit is an incredibly blunt instrument for deterring bad driving, as if driving below the limit is always going to be the safest option. It also motivates law enforcement abuse. The vehicle-environment-driver complex is much more nuanced than a single variable threshold.
That’s always been my thoughts on the matter. Don’t enforce speed. Enforce proper lane usage and following distance.
That and modify the road, don’t expect all the drivers to change their subconscious behaviors
It can be as simple as paint - people will go the speed they feel is appropriate, threat of punishment won’t effectively change their behavior. If the road looks smaller than it is or seems to narrow around intersections, people just drive slower
Cheap, easy, science based.
What is the point of making a road that is specifically designed for high speed and then putting a limit on it?
Because once you get within an hour and a half of a major city, you’ve got hundreds of suburbs feeding into it with everyday commuters trying to drive along side people out there driving like it’s GTA.
The only places where it’s actually 85 are places where the air lift won’t make it to the hospital in time.
I’ve got my problems with Texas’ infrastructure but removing speed limits wouldn’t help.
In my experience, American roads are built to support much higher speeds than the speed limit is set. Going 10-20mph over the limit doesn’t feel particularly unsafe on the wide, straight roads.
On the other side, it felt crazy to drive the speed limit on (for example) the narrow, windy roads in Ireland. The limit there felt like a literal maximum, whereas in the US it feels like the minimum.
If you look at the design documents for the roads in your area, usually available in plain old PDF files at your State DOT website… it usually states both the designed speed, and what the posted speed will be.
If it’s a modern road, it is almost certainly designed for 5-10mph over what the posted limit will be. Because they know most traffic will speed, and that is accounted for in the road design, regardless of the posted limit sign.
It’s wild to me that someone heard this logic and said “makes sense”.
Like, I get it from an engineering perspective. You find out the maximum capacity of a bridge, account for extremes like multiple heavy loads, find the point of failure, and then engineer in a safety factor. Making sure your bridge can handle your theoretical maximum several times over.
But, we aren’t dealing with people seeing a strong bridge and thinking “nice, I can carry more stuff in my car” and encourage a larger capacity. The capacity they carry is already limited by their vehicle. They aren’t even thinking about the bridges capacity.
With road design. The road controls the capacity (speed) directly to the user of the road. There is a physical speed that if their car reaches they will crash. They interact with it directly.
Designing a road that increases that speed at which a guaranteed crash will happen is primarily just increasing the lethality of said crash. That’s the primary part of “safety” that the design guideline is controlling.
It’s saying. “Hey, if you go too fast for the road conditions, don’t worry. We made sure that the road was designed so that when you reach that speed you’ll have less time to react and more chance of dying”.
Also, “everyone speeds” is bull shit. Every speeds down a zero intersection straight road with a posted speed limit 15 MPH under what the road was designed for. It’s a fucking self fulfilling prophecy.
It’s saying. “Hey, if you go too fast for the road conditions, don’t worry. We made sure that the road was designed so that when you reach that speed you’ll have less time to react and more chance of dying”.
That’s not at all what’s being said. Knowing the speed people will want to drive with a specific design, doesn’t make it inherently “too fast”, its the exact opposite. The road designers are literally designing what the road condition will feel like to drivers, then taking the human factor into account to set a sensible limit instead of an arbitrary one.
If they know the road design will make people drive 50mph, and that most people drive 5mph over the posted limit, they post a 45mph limit. Driving at 50mph down that road is not “too fast”, that’s literally what was designed to feel correct.
There have been several studies over the years about posted versus real world speeds. Including studies of the same road with the posted speed being changed and monitoring driver behavior. They found that regardless of what the posted sign says, people usually drove about the same speed on that road. The minimum and maximum speeds varied with different signs as some people used that number directly, but the average of all traffic stayed the same regardless of the signage because that’s the speed that felt correct for that roadway. In some cases that was under the posted limit, in others that average was up to 10 over the posted limit.
Every speeds down a zero intersection straight road with a posted speed limit 15 MPH under what the road was designed for. It’s a fucking self fulfilling prophecy.
Most roads do not have posted speed limits that vary dramatically from the speed that feels right on that road, because they’re designed for a specific speed and posted with that consideration. Artificially low speed limits are not common. They’re usually from a speed being changed years after the road was designed and built, so it wasn’t intended to have drivers at that speed and also wasn’t physically changed to help reinforce that speed subconsciously, or from a town trying to boost ticket revenue.
That’s not at all what’s being said. Knowing the speed people will want to drive with a specific design, doesn’t make it inherently “too fast”, its the exact opposite.
You quoted and replied to my hyperbolic conclusion instead of the substance of what I was saying. Which is why I don’t really disagree, on the face of it, with anything you said.
The problem is not in individual roads or individual road designs. Though we often have to use the thought of an individual road to describe the problem. Which is what I was doing through analogy. The problem is that there is nothing put into the design to account for the impact on the way people drive based on the design parameters themselves.
It is a feedback loop that is not being taken into consideration by the design guidelines of American road infrastructure. The very basic “post the height of the bridge as 1 ft lower than it actually is” is being applied to speed limits and road design. When this type of thinking is far too simplistic for a much more complex system of human interaction with the road and other humans themselves.
The truck driver that drives a 10ft tall truck that fits under a bridge with a posted 9 ft 11in tall sign doesn’t think “hmmm I bet I could fit my 10ft 1in truck under here as well”.
But drivers do have these more complex thoughts and interactions with the road that they drive down every day.
My post was more a criticism of the use of speed limits in general. Which is why I was being hyperbolic. But I should have been more clear.
I am in favor of the design choice that "the driver should not even need to know the limit. They should be incentivized by the design to drive at a speed that is both safe for themselves, other drivers, and above all, pedestrians.
When I was in Appalachia, on the mountain roads, many are very narrow, and winding. Speed limits often like 40, and you can’t go more than that without crashing unless you have a motorcycle or something. It’s not a suggestion, it’s the maximum you can do on the curves.
Furthermore, even though that’s the maximum, the safest speed on mountain roads is the one you feel comfortable with. Even though I’m experienced driving in the mountains and can comfortably go that limit I’m not gonna be too annoyed at the car from Florida in front of me going 15mph under. I will get extremely annoyed when they don’t use the pull out spots or accelerate up to the speed limit on the passing zones though.
You are right about American freeways. City roads tend to have a lower speed limit that is probably appropriate and it would be unsafe to go faster.
Rural America will have little roads with deer and intersections at blind curves and say 55 mph seems about right.
I have noticed the opposite, having driven in multiple countries. American urban speeds are dangerously higher while the highway speeds are set lower.
Rural America will have little roads with deer and intersections at blind curves and say 55 mph seems about right.
And the residents will do 65 on them and complain about the tourists who do 45. I know, I’ve been both.
this is often not thought about when talking about this but even the spacing in the lines drawn on the road influences your perception of speed.
the solution isn’t trying to enforce lower limits, it’s having roads enforce them.
As noted car enthusiast NotJustBikes has said, driving is not a conscious activity. We drive to what feels right, to a degree. A road built to support 100kph will always have speeder problems until layers of traffic calming are put in place.
UK B road limits are in fact limits, often being little more than millennia old cart paths with asphalt applied
I think we just need to pull people over for speeding until they get it that speeding is not OK. Like the signs are right there, and driving SHOULD be a conscious activity. If people are not driving consciously they should lose their car and license.
Driving consciously is bound to be less safe. Any activity you’ve done a thousand times, if you start overthinking what you’re doing, you make more mistakes.
Just design the roads for the speed you want people to go and 99.9% of drivers will slow down without giving it a second thought. You design a road for 130 km/h, people will go around 130 km/h not the 90 km/h limit you’ve posted. Etc.
Driving consciously is bound to be less safe. Any activity you’ve done a thousand times, if you start overthinking what you’re doing, you make more mistakes.
That’s complete nonsense, i didn’t say overthinking but absolutely you should be paying attention. You’re actually arguing that not consciously doing things is safer? Pay attention, when you a speed limit sign, follow it. That’s all I’m asking for, that’s not overthinking. In fact speeding is overthinking, “sign says 40 but im good to go 45 or even 47”. THAT is overthinking.
Just pulling more people over for speeding is how you turn it into a revenue generating exercise. Law enforcement’s goal should be improving safety, not maximizing revenue.
Designing roads to encourage people to drive an appropriate speed is more effective, even when the road blocks aren’t staffed.
Note: but I’ll fight against destructive speed bumps, maybe all speed bumps. They’re usually just annoying and damaging without really helping. It should also not be a goal to damage my car if I drive at the speed the rest of the road is designed for. Heck, a speed bump warning may be more effective. Either way: fix the road the right way
and you’re here in the US? I ask because yeah i constantly see people taking turns way too fast and drifting into the next lane or even the shoulder, people disregarding cones, people going 20mph over land bridges for no reason than other than in the US we just assume you go 10mph faster over a land bridge just because. People speeding up in front of yellow lights and then just getting there late and running the red anyway. Like daily, like at each intersection this happens.
yes, i’m all in favor of best practices when it comes to designing roads, but people here drive like crazy assholes and they rather risk the occasional crash than drive sensibly for the road conditions like you say. Tons of people on their phones swerving in and out of traffic. Yes, let’s improve the infrastructure 100%, but there really is a problem here of people disregarding basic driving safety on top of that.
you’re here in the US?
I’ve seen people here describe it as the most European part of the US, but yeah.
I do see it - straight and wide roads have more distracted drivers, more speeders, more dangers, especially for pedestrians and cyclists. But we also have a lot of narrow, winding roads with utility poles right on the edges, deer warnings, etc. you have to pay attention
Why is it so hard for people to set their adaptive cruise control to the speed limit? Everyone is watching TikTok on their phone anyways. Can we have speed governors in all cars please? At least in official cars like public works and fleet for utilities?
Most of the cars I’ve driven won’t allow you to activate cruise control until you’re up over 40-45 mph, making it useless for pretty much anything other than highway driving
Weird, my car is 40 km.
Only car Ive driven with adaptive didn’t seem to have a lower limit? Had no issues setting it to 100kph and activating it when I was doing like 15. That was a Mitsubishi phev but idk their naming so idk which one.
Often it occurs because the speed is poorly done. Engineers will come out and review road shape, surrounds, etc. and agree to new limits if it’s clear drivers are, on average, using the road at the speed anyway.
But that’s a big difference from a culture of people just speeding everywhere.
Honestly, even if you raise limits, people will raise them further
also changing lanes very quickly while driving at high speeds, without signalling, after pandemic, people got worst.
It’s because it is never enforced anymore.
It’s worse than that. If everyone speeds all the time, cops have a valid reason to pull over and harass anyone they choose, on the pretext of speeding. You’ll never guess what demographic gets a disproportionate amount of police attention despite not speeding (or committing other traffic violations) significantly more than average.
And of you’re not speeding, it appears in the US they stop you for endangering others on the road
So they set up speed camera(that is not Flock or mass surveillance) and people yell about constitutional right.
Rightly so. A machine should not be able to enforce the laws. You have the right to face your accuser in the US - can’t often do so if humans are taken out of the enforcement loop.
It’s pretty much codified. 9 mph over means pretty much nothing. If you are a little over that? Everyone knows the courts will probably knock it down to 9 over just by asking.
As another comment points out, it’s works for being selectively enforced. Almost every car on the road can be pulled over. Even if you are going the speed limit, you might get pulled over for impeding traffic.
There are roads where speeding is so common you will in fact be dangerously tailgated if you drive the speed limit
My entire commute
German standard.
And don’t dare to drive lower, although of course you’d be legally allowed to.
When someone is following too closely, rapidly tap the brake pedal to flash the brake light to signal to them to back off.
That’s how you get followed home by a road rager, possibly possessing a firearm.
The best method is to spray your windshield.
Some of it gets swept with the wind into their windshield, and they have to wipe/clean theirs.I don’t think that’s ever failed to get someone to back off.
Why would someone care about this? I’ve had this happen to me a handful of times, almost always a jeep because they have crazy over spray, I was never tail gating but I was totally unphased by it, its wiper fluid not acid
I don’t think people care about it, but it seems to trigger some subconscious “I’m too close” and they drop back a bit.
I guess if someone is actually being an asshole aggressive tailgater then they won’t care
That’s why I fill my windshield wiper fluid reservoir with hexafluorosilicic acid.
When you do this, they become a reasonable person and stop doing what they’re doing
i have gotten tailgated by a semi truck in a highway construction zone, one of the scariest things i have experienced while driving. i couldnt even see his lights in my back window he was so close
I got tailgated on a rural highway by a semitruck once. I was going 70 mph. When I slowed down to stop at a red light, they changed lanes and blew through it.
Lol wtf is all these car lovers doing in /c/FUCKCARS
First of all, you’d be surprised how many car enthusiasts support good urbanism. They aren’t mutually exclusive.
Second, the people in this thread aren’t demonstrating love for cars anyway; they’re largely merely acknowledging the factual reality that it really is dangerous to provoke a lot of extra lane changes and passing maneuvers by driving at a significantly different speed than the flow of traffic. Speaking of which, I’ve removed some of your other comments (specifically, the ones suggesting to do that and to pseudo-brake-check people who tailgate in response) in accordance with section 8.1 of the Lemmy.world TOS. Please don’t make similar dangerous suggestions here again.
Hey power tripping mod, don’t be an asshole.
It’s not a brake check to lightly tap the pedal to flash the light. That’s how you communicate to person behind you.
Why would you delete my comments in the name of danger but let everyone else who says you should drive above the speed limit stay?
In that case you’d be communicating that you’re brakechecking them lmao. Once in a while i do a “reverse pass”, i just go in the left lane take my foot off the gas and let them pass me on the right, then i get back over.
That also sounds dangerous to me, imo, if there are other cars around. I would just continue to drive a safe speed and let them pass on the left. Or, if appropriate, put my right blinker on and hug the right shoulder to make it easier for them to pass (e.g. on a two lane road with the passing middle lane marker.)
That also sounds dangerous to me, imo, if there are other cars around.
well yeah, i only do it if the left lane is completely empty to spitefully show them they could have easily passed the whole time lmao
Because one is done in an attempt to invite a collision and the one is done in an attempt to avoid a collision
I thought fuckcars meant that you wanted to fuck cars…
For real. As if my 30 year old car loves doing 80+ mph. I hate people justifying speeding. Instead of flashing my brakes lights if they’re too close I just l clean my windshield and splash their car. Instead of brake checking I just barely slow down and force them to go around.
I haven’t commented yet, but consider my situation as an example.
Middle aged, lifelong resident of midwest suburbia, USA. Car-centric infrastructure created long before I was born. Mass transit is a novelty that’s only available when visiting the city. All of this to say: Owning a car and driving to every destination is a basic necessity.
I enjoy the sensory experience of driving and I have a small fun car.
But I also try to pay attention to the world around me and care about other people and other life on this planet. So even though I’m a bit of a “car guy” I can definitely say yeah, fuck cars.
And I use the term “cars” lightly. Where I live, if you drive a “car” like a 4-door sedan that seats 5 and weighs under 3,500lbs (1588 kg), you are already in the smallest 10% of vehicles on the road.
Welcome to /c/all!
It bothers me when people don’t go the speed limit. Faster or slower, the speed limit is to set a consistent speed. Consistent means predictable which results in safer conditions. This would result in less traffic and less fuel consumption.
However, following the flow of traffic is safer than trying to go the speed limit. If you’re the one person going 20 units per hour slower than everyone, you are the hazard.
That’s not what the speed limit is for though. It’s the maximum safe speed not the speed you should always move at
Yeah but am I going to put myself at risk of a ticket, points on the license and higher insurance rates, and attention from the police, (the less interaction the better,) because others speeding is making it dangerous?
Sometimes. Most of the time, I follow the law. Almost all of it. Only in passing really do I speed on purpose even a bit. I would for safety if it was needed, but I am not going to put myself in danger of being pulled over because people that are less likely to get hassled by the cops are mildly inconvenienced by someone going the speed their lawmakers all agree on.
In an ideal world, I agree 100%. Most of the time I can set my cruise to the speed limit and let the reckless people pass.
However, following the flow of traffic is safer than trying to go the speed limit. If you’re the one person going 20 units per hour slower than everyone, you are the hazard.
If people are intent on breaking the law, I will accommodate them passing me safely.
I will not be breaking the law to accommodate someone else’s desire to do so, to consider that to be an expectation is downright delusional
In my high school marching band, us in the drum line had this really hard to reach mark for one show. We had something crazy like 30 yards on a 16 count. Just absolutely hoofing it.
None of us could do it consistently, except for the 2nd bass drummer who was really tall and had a really wide gate. Anyway, he’d hit is mark every time. And every time he did, the band director would yell at him because even though he was in the right spot, everyone else was wrong together, so we all looked correct and he looked wrong because while we were in a perfectly straight line, he was another 5 yards or more to the right of us. He looked ridiculous.
And what made it worse was that our line was supposed to connect with a curved line in the low brass section. Their curve was supposed to reach out and run right down to the point of our #1 snare drummer. And that 2nd bass drummer would be in their way every time. And in an attempt to avoid a collision, they would change from a smooth arc into a weird curvy wobble just to avoid him.
The band director was sick of it ruining the spectacle. The band was sick of getting points off in competitions. So, when the band director said “make the form work, and if someone is in your way, run them over,” no one in the formation spoke out against it.
The next run through the song, that 2nd bass drummer got walloped by a two tubas, and then got his bell rung by a trombone player. He was right. He was always right. And in being right, he looked wrong, he made life harder for everyone around him, and ultimately was hurt because of his stubborness.
The lesson was finally clear to him: when you are in Rome, you do as the Romans do. It doesn’t matter how confident someone is that they are supposed to be driving on the right side of the road, if everyone else agrees to drive on the left, then that person will get in a head on collision. And then we the attendees of their funeral can write “They were right” on their gravestone. For some things in this world are worth dying for, and some things are not, and there is a certain wisdom in distinguishing the two.
Is there a reason that the band director couldn’t modify the drill to make something actually achievable, or simply reflect the reality of how it was being performed?
My marching band days were in high school and i don’t really remember if our drill ever got changed midway through, or how.
I know the original thread was about speed limits, but i don’t usually think about marching band so this is fun.
Lol, no problemo! I’m happy to talk marching band.
Basically, he was a perfectionist with high expectations. He wrote his own arrangements and wrote his in drill sheets. He didn’t want to change it because he wanted us to be able to do it. To his credit, we punched way above our weight class. We competed as a AAA band despite being a single-A size and we regularly ranked in the top 3.
He only taught at our highschool for a few years. Then he taught at a university across the country, was there a few years, and is now the band director of a very well known university band. Not interested in doxing him or me, so pardon the vagueness.
I think he is much better suited for his current role rather than the highschool he was at while I was there. Thankful for the opportunity and stewardship, but with the hindsight of adulthood, he pushed us kids more than was appropriate. Not dangerous, just disproportionate to our age.
That’s a great story. Glad he went on to bigger and better things!
Our band director would tell us that we were “outstanding in our field” quite often during practice. Our band was all volunteer / extra curricular, and we would compete in band festivals in which we were often the only band in our (small) size category, and win by default, but we’d try to be louder than the bands where participation in band was mandatory for music students.
So your point is, I’m in my lane, driving the speed limit, and some asshat with shit for brains drives like a fucking lunatic comes up behind me, now I have to drive like a fucking lunatic too?
No.
However i have been on roads where the posted speed limit was something like 45, but the average speed limit of the 10+ cars around me at any time was 65 / 70, due to the road’s design encouraging that speed. (This was when i was traveling in Long Island, NY).
I could go against the grain and drive 45, and that would be perfectly legal, but likely more dangerous than trying to match the slowest speed of other cars around me.
In my world, driving 45-55% faster than the speed limit is driving like a fucking lunatic, so yes, that is what you’re getting at.
It is so weird then that in the USA, there are places that driving “sane” singles you out, and is more dangerous.
You’re supposed to go below the speed limit. It’s a limit.
That’s because it is.
Try driving through I-5 in Los Angeles following the speed limit. I dare you.
I mean most daylight hours you’ll be well below it 😂😂
the real answer to question “why people speed” is someplace closer to “why was this neighbourhood road designed like a freeway”. Another is “why is it safe to have virtually no speed limits on Autobahns?”. I mean people act on environmental queues - from the size of lanes to what speed fellow motorists are observing. Just pinning it on individuals is incorrect. HOWEVER there are entitled arseholes out there who will totally ride jour read bumper at high speed because they need to pass you only to turn off at nearest exit.
“why was this neighbourhood road designed like a freeway”
The stroad by my house is five lanes wide with a 45mph speed limit but still has crosswalks that nobody can use because it’s a five lane road with people doing 45mph and many people have already been killed crossing. So many that children are bussed from the school across the road because it’s too dangerous to even have a crossing guard.
You read that right: Kids who live less than 200 feet from the school can’t walk there because the road is too dangerous.
And we can’t get the speed limit lowered because it’s a state highway and the state says it has to be 45 and the local community has no say in it.
And people wonder why I hate authority.
from the size of lanes
Depends on where. I’m going the speed limit through town or less where there are people. It saves lives.
But highways are built for fast driving and cars continue to get safer and more performant. Fuck the speed limit set for 1970’s death traps and hasn’t changed.
The real problem as always is local roads designed like highways. Stroads seem to be one of the underrated evils of modern society
The speed limit has raised since those death machines… Specifically because it was lowered due to that oil crisis.
Cars might have gotten better, but a lot of highways haven’t been improved enough for those higher speeds. For example, there’s a lot of on ramps in older cities with very short merge zones, and you need to hammer the throttle and pray that there’s a spot for you by the time you hit the end.
This is especially true if the person in front of you refuses to accelerate to highway speeds to merge safely, simply hoping that people will be nice enough to let them in.
There’s one near me where I’ve almost been in accidents just about every time I use it.
Yep, lots of these where I live. My civic was a problem, but my Subaru had enough acceleration to make it easer. Now I have an EV and a habit of hanging back on the ramp since my EV will make the guy in front of me appear to be standing still
it’s more like, “if I don’t, the psycho behind me will gut me like a fish and then fashion my skin into an extremely ineffective shower curtain”
yeah i know that he shouldn’t do that because it’s illegal, but the world is full of highly principled corpses and there are people who are depending on me to be alive.
at least i get to cruise slow and steady when there happens to be no one else behind me… and what’s wild is, ever since i grew the fuck up and stopped being a speeder piece of shit, i hardly ever encounter traffic jams anymore, and i don’t seem to get where i’m going any later than i would have otherwise.
I don’t. I go the speed limit to the best of my ability. I only speed by accident and when safety suggests I need to follow traffic.
I wouldn’t say you are SUPPOSED to, but it is called a LIMIT for a reason. I’ve had to remind that to people. It’s a LIMIT to how fast you are supposed to go. Going 80 on the highway should get you a ticket but no one gives a fuck anymore and most people commuting seem to be in a permanent rage induced mood.
It’s pathetic in my eyes.
You’re supposed to go below the speed limit
You’re not supposed to, but you can. You can go the limit, that’s the meaning behind limit. You’re also allowed to not go the limit, but you’re not supposed to.
