A friend and I are arguing over ghosts.
I think it’s akin to astrology, homeopathy and palm reading. He says there’s “convincing “ evidence for its existence. He also took up company time to make a meme to illustrate our relative positions. (See image)
(To be fair, I’m also on the clock right now)
What do you think?
I think it’s fine if people believe in ghosts and spiritual stuff. My wife believes in ghosts, genuinely and fervently. I don’t really care to battle her on this because regardless of what she believes and what I believe we ultimately end up doing the same thing in the end - nothing. I think it’s a bit childish, but it’s no more or less unreasonable than faith in a god or a higher power and people will fight you over that.
I think the delineating factor is how much belief in ghosts or the supernatural play into your decision making and your worldview.
If a person believes ghosts are real, but never really act on that belief, it’s harmless.
if a person believes ghosts are real and alter their behavior in meaningful ways as a result, it’s maladaptive.
For example, say you hear a creaking noise in the middle of the night that startles you awake. Person A, Person B and Person C each check to ensure there’s no intruder in the house and determine that all the doors and windows are still locked and there are no signs of forced entry.
Person A comes to the conclusion that it was just the sound of the wood joists expanding or contracting as the temperature fluctuates and goes back to bed.
Person B comes to the conclusion that the sound could have only been produced by a ghost and therefore their house must be haunted, and so they call an emergency priest to come exorcise the house with holy water and they stay up all night clutching charms and wards to fend off spirits.
Person C comes to the conclusion that the sound could have only been produced by a ghost, says a quick (10 second) prayer for protection/guidance for the lost spirit and then goes back to sleep.
You can see how Person A and Person C have conflicting views about the origin of the sound, one which relates to scientific explanations for real phenomena and the other that delves into spirituality and faith to explain it. Regardless, they are both able to resume their normal behaviors (sleeping) afterward, while Person B shares the same view of the origin of the sound as person C, but their view is extremely disruptive and illogical. Their belief in ghosts requires them to take extreme measures to feel protected against them, but there is no evidence that anything bad would have happened as a result if they had chosen to do nothing instead. Nor would there have been a guarantee that something bad would not have happened anyway if they did all of the “proper” things to remain safe from ghosts.
It’s not important that you believe in ghosts. It’s only important that they believe in themselves.
Reason on its own doesn’t bring enough to the table. Without critical thinking (and even with it) reason can lead to any conclusion.
If the data you reason on is flawed (and it is for everyone) then you’ll end up with wrong conclusions no matter how reasonable you are.
Does your friend consider themselves on the left or the right side of the graph?
Any graph like that where it puts their own beliefs as ‘smart’ and others beliefs as ‘dumb’ is inherently a pretty useless graph. Graph says them smart, you dumb. Does the graph not convince you? LOL.
OP’s friend is here, we can talk to them.
Man, the downvote ratio really goes to show how many people vote without reading a post. I imagine a lot of them would agree with you, but they just saw the meme and thought, “That’s stupid.” Which is ironically a vote in your favor.
As a reasonable person, I can admit that it’s always “possible” that ghosts exist. Meaning, that I am not 100% positive that they don’t.
I can also admit that there could be unicorns on Pluto, because it’s nigh impossible to prove a negative.
The difference is that unicorns on Pluto is something you just made up right now as a smug dismissal of a reasonable stance.
Ghosts, on the other hand, are our attempt to explain an unexplainable phenomenon that tens of millions of people have personally experienced here on Earth. Outright dismissing the idea that there’s zero chance something weird is going on isn’t that far from claiming absolute certainty that ghosts are real.
A few hundred years ago you’d have been thrown into an insane asylum for insisting there are these tiny invisible living beings all around us - and that it would be smart for surgeons to wash their tools before sticking them inside another person.
That’s the only intellectually honest way to look at anything considered “supernatural”. We’re flawed beings with imperfect perceptions of reality.
I’m now a manager, but I work in contract security, and have been in more buildings that were supposedly haunted than I care to count. Including buildings that have numerous stories of freaky shit happening.
Doors closing “randomly” or very-not-randomly. Spaces suddenly getting cold. puddles showing up in bathrooms that someone supposedly drowned in. Stairwells that sound like people walking down them at specific times of night.
odd noises. Freaky noises.
I have never once been in a building where I could not identify a perfectly natural cause. Here’s a few incidents off the top of my mind that I remember very specifically. There are some few commonalities to people who see ghosts. or demons, or any other supernatural entity.
- they’re incurious and don’t care to find out what really happened.
- they’re frequently (usually?) tired or otherwise in an altered state of mind. or incredibly bored.
- They already believe in supernatural things… and what they see generally conforms to their world view.
Ghost stories are perpetuated by the credulous, who find things that are decidedly weird, and then stop looking any further. or they hear a story- suicides, murders, etc- and attribute every weird little thing to that.
or they’re told by straight up liars and ran with by people who would run with scissors and untied shoes. a lot of times, it’s started by people who have an inability to admit they don’t know something.
Regardless, if ghosts were real. if they were common, and if they interacted with the natural world, then we would have actual, tangible evidence for their existence. You’d be able to point at one and say ‘aha! a ghost!’ that doesn’t happen.
These are just some of the examples of things I’ve heard about and found to be otherwise.
One example was a guy who claimed ghosts were always going around closing every fire door every night at 23:00. On the dot. Every night.
And yeah. doors were being closed as described. Guess what? All the doors had one thing in common.
They were being held open by magnetic door holders. they’re fire doors. Building code here requires that they be self-closing in the event of a fire alarm to prevent the spread of fire. But that’s really rather inconvenient in long hallways where people don’t want to be opening big heavy doors everytime they’re bringing a cart of shit through.
Thus, the electromagnetic door holders that turn off whenever a fire alarm goes off.
Well. if you guessed that the fire system had been programmed to turn off all the door holders at 23:00 each night, just long enough to let any being held open close… you’d be right. All it took to verify that was to send a five minute email to the facility engineer, who spent all of ten minutes checking settings on the fire alarm system and turned it off.
Another example of doorholder mayhem is one in which the doorholders were slowly going bad.
This was when I was a manager, and I was doing a sort of covert investigation where I go in and have them train me on the site. there were problems.
those problems all stemmed from a fundamental lack of curiosity. Which stemmed from a fervent belief in the supernatural. Voices in spaces that are supposed to be empty? they weren’t teenagers smoking dope, it was spirits.
One example of spirits that loved to fuck with him? one hallway had firedoors that sectioned off a t-shaped hallway, that was lined with businesses (mostly offices.) he was supposed to go down the hallway, checking and locking all the doors and generally making sure everything was in good order. the firedoor in the middle of the hallway, kept closing on him.
Rather than looking into what the issue was, he wrote it off as demons fucking with him, specifically.
The reality was that the doorhoder was going bad (probably had been for a long time. as that happens their holding power gets weaker. this door holder’s holding power was just strong enough to hold the door when it was static, but any kind of touch or slight pressure was enough for it to close.
Including changes in the air pressure as you walked past. When I pointed this out to him. Well. Lets just say he’s no some other company’s problem.
another example is voices in unusual places
Guess what? walls be thin, yo.
Frequently, office buildings with multiple tenants are remodeled in strange ways. especially if they’re older- things get partitioned weierd. spaces get remodeled and lighting and power doesn’t be as you’d expect.
In any case, in this particular building, the idiot in question didn’t realize that the very short custodial closet didn’t go all the way “back” from the hall- she should have, though. She’d also never gone into the space that wrapped around the maintenance closet to run beside the space that she kept hearing voices in “that shouldn’t be there!”
Those voices were caused by people working late.
my personal favorite, ghost steps coming down stairs.
this particular building is historic- that is to say, it was a tire warehouse built in the 1890s. It’s really quite a lovely building. Giant limestone block foundation, old tan brick. cedar beam construction.
one of two stairwells that hit ever floor has fire sprinkler stand pipes running through each landing. not surprising, considering. the building is old. It’s drafty as fuck. And at night, in order to save energy, because it literally predates central air, they turn the system off at night (or run it to a lower set point.)
This results in a fairly consistent rate at which it cools off. the fire stand pipes cool off at a different rate, though, and clunk against the landings the pass through. They do so in a way that sounds like someone walking down the stairs.
Incurious guards just wrote it off as some ghost or something, but all of the long term tenants will tell a story about how there was a guy that died from a tractor tire falling on him. (didn’t happen, by the way. Though numerous people did die here. mostly jumpers.)
Radiators make some creepy noises.
I mean. Seriously. gurrgle gurrgle. burble burble. Tickety tick.
still not ghosts.
big cats sound like screaming women.
yeap. okay, need to clarify, I mean, our local lynxes and bobcats, as well as the occasional mountain lion passing through.
If you ever saw Annihilation, with the “help me” bear. yeah. it’s like that. Randomly. Out of the dark woods. and not coherent words so much as screams. (that account happened to border a large statepark that had some cats living in it.)
Sudden changes of temperature
So, most office building’s HVACs work on positive pressure. This way, when a door gets opened, the hot air goes out rather than the cold air coming in. (or cold air going out, hot air coming in. Depends on where you are and the season.)
for whatever reason, one of the office spaces just had massive open vents (I personally suspect this was a remodel that got left in the wall. the vent just connected the main lobby/entryway to the space (above a plenum ceiling)
Another feature of building HVAC systems are the airlock doors as you come and go. Guess what happens when you open both airlock doors and have a window you’re not supposed to have open, open?
All your air rushes out, getting replaced by cold air.
Puddles in Bathrooms
Okay. so, water goes from high places to low places, and tends to follow the ‘easiest’ path, even if its somewhat convoluted. If you have an inexplicable puddle somewhere, you have a water leak somewhere.
what you don’t have is some kind of poltergeist taking a bath. Doesn’t matter if a person committed suicide in the bathroom, or rather, if you’re told that’s what happened. (it’s not.)
Turns out that the rooftop had a leak, and that was travelling down through 8 floors to show up in a bathroom. because that’s where the pipes the water was following kinda sorta came out.
lso, which requirements in terms of species are there for a haunting to commence? Can a horse become a ghost? What about a gorilla? Or a Neanderthal? Seems weird that only homo sapients ge
Uh huh, likely stories. Sounds like something a ghost would say 🤨
This was fun to read
not sure about your local critters, but red foxes also have vocalizations that scare people sometimes
e: if there are lynxes around then maybe foxes aren’t, because these two compete heavily
Many animals do, yes. Even mice whose sole offense is skittering about.
I hear coyotes outside my bedroom window every night and I’m so glad I know what they are. The first time I ever heard them, I was alone in a tent surrounded by them. Absolute Blair Witch horror for about 5 minutes until my brain was awake enough to realize what I was hearing.
While we’re here, I just witnessed a Crow trying to talk like a parrot. Shits getting weird
I’d avoid planetary alignments, pixies. maybe starwberry milkshakes, but those are hard to pass up. especially the malted ones.
Do I believe in ghosts in the literal sense of an actual spirit hanging around in the physical world haunting places and people? No.
Do I think it’s fascinating to see how the idea of “ghosts” are used in a cultural sense usually representing an individual or group’s desires, thoughts, feelings, etc. after they’ve passed on and usually storytelling around respecting their wishes or finishing what they started so they can finally be “at peace”? Yes.
I also find it fascinating in a tragic way how people who’ve gone through extreme grief and loss can cling to the idea of ghosts, particularly of loved ones. Perhaps the pyschie doesn’t want to let go of that person so much that it can manifest as audio-visual hallucinations that feel incredibly real to the individual.
After all, we all perceive the world through our brain: it is the filter for everything.
I’ve experienced some strange stuff personally, but I don’t think I’ve seen an actual ghost. I remember having a dream about a close relative the night they died suddenly and we all found out in the morning. But that could be my memory post-rationalising something.
I’ve seen a milk bottle fly out from the back of the fridge but I swear I remember that the fridge wasn’t rocking unstably and that the milk was definitely at the back of the fridge. But I could have seen incorrectly because who pays attention to the precise location of a milk bottle when opening the fridge.
And I’ve encountered machines that appeared to be haunted. An ex-gf’s iPod classic she kept because it is a time capsule of her music would randomly turn itself on, play 10 seconds of a random song, then turn itself off again.
I can feel how a ghost story would fit all of these and feel like it would make emotional sense to me. Like there’s some deep part of our evolutionary psychology that supports feeling this way. Why?
Now in that sense I believe people genuinely experienced “ghosts” that aren’t actually there but are a part of their perceived reality and I find that fascinating.
Depending on where you live, your friend might be eligible for using public transportation completely for free with a special id. It is also possible that their job security is going through the roof. One needs to be tested first, though and from what you wrote about them, I’d suggest that you or another person close to them escort them to a clinic. This way they don’t get lost and can get help speaking with the personell when the instructions or other information get too complicated for them.
@yizus@lemmy.world @nostupidquestions@lemmy.world
I’m someone who’s quite used to try and see things through the lens of Science. I’m a nerd, after all. But I’ve also been, especially since 2023 (when I momentarily was part of a Luciferian group), someone who does actual ritualistic practices, I’m quite religious.
I don’t really believe in ghosts in the typical (e.g. kardecist) sense, partly because I want to believe that death can dissolve the ego once and for all. I mean, hell no!, I’m not going to reincarnate again, Demiurge can go pound sand.
However, in a nutshell, I believe in two things.
First, the thing we call “spiritual” would be some kind of actual, spatial dimension, a field/brane (as in M-theory); “spirit” is just non-baryonic matter which, similarly to neutrinos, have very weak, almost undetectable, interaction with ordinary matter (maybe spirits are neutrinos, who knows?); and everything, from living beings to asteroids, all made of “star stuff” (to quote Carl Sagan), would have simultaneous “spirit stuff”. I’d be “pan-animist” (i.e. everything got a spirit).
The other part of my belief: dæmons, entities, archons, Demiurge… And, most importantly, The Dark Mother. I believe in their existences as cosmic principles. For dæmons, entities and archons, I believe they’re analogous to living beings (self-organizing structures) but baryonically incorporeal, some of them knowledgeable about interacting with this baryonic realm.
For Demiurge (popularly known as “God”) and the Dark Mother Goddess (often unbeknownst to those who believe in “God” because patriarchy tried to erase Her from human knowledge), they’re both… ineffable, I don’t even know how to start making scientific sense of both, they’re manifestation of several laws of physics themselves.
Goddess, specifically: She’s the entropy, She’s the field across which EM radiation propagates, She’s in the silence, She’s the singularity and the event horizon and She’s also the black hole; mainly, She’s Darkness. She’s Death Herself. We’re wired to see Darkness and Death as “evil”, what to flee from, but I came to the conclusion that good and evil are nothing but artificial human constructs, and when one detaches themselves from mundane measurements, Demiurge is actually the closest to “evil” because he traps the matter into this existence, distancing us from our true origin, the Mother and Her Womb. Death is Mother trying to rescue us; life, reincarnation (Samsara), is Demiurge trying to keep us trapped in this theater. A cosmic tug of war.
Like fractals, they both unfold within their Wholes: Sefirots emanated from Demiurge, Qlippots from Mother, Goetia dæmons as mixed emanations.
Both also unfold into Great Manifestations as rebellious complementarities: Lucifer (from Demiurge) and Lilith (from Dark Mother Goddess). I’ve experienced them manifesting physically many times like “ghosts” would do, particularly Lilith, whom I directly worship.
Dunno how “reasonable” I am, tho.
People who don’t believe in ghosts just assume that people who believe in them think they are like blankets moving all by themselves like they are in cartoons. That is, of course, not the case. It’s much more complicated than that. Atheists sometimes really fall for the dumbest arguments possible
Ghosts are real but only jedi masters (like the one in the meme) can see them. Unfortunately, jedi masters are not real.
So Anakin can’t see ghosts?
He says there’s “convincing “ evidence for its existence.
Big if true. He should send that to you instead of making memes.
Yeah, this is literally it. There is either evidence and that’s the end of the argument, or there isn’t and you’re just having fun talking about ghosts.
If ghosts were real, then I can think of a few people throughout history who would have been swarmed by them. Adolf Hitler would have approximately 13 million spirits haunting him by the end. Something like 100,000,000,000 humans have ever lived, and somehow all the ghosts are from culturally relevant time frames? For all the US civil war ghosts people have seen, you’d think there’d be orders of magnitude more native Americans haunting this place. Did the European colonists just make sure to let the Indigenous peoples finish all their business before hunting them to near extinction?
The question’s a little weird.
Can a reasonable person genuinely believe in ghosts? Yes, obviously, people do and many of them would be considered generally reasonable. They manage their lives okay, they make good decisions most of the time, they’re not gibbering maniacs, they’re reasonable people.
But: is it reasonable (meaning, grounded in good evidence) to believe in ghosts? I’d say it depends on what you and your friend specifically mean by “ghosts”, but in general no. If ghosts were real, they’d be more observable.
And “Hitchens said so” is pretty weak sauce, so I hope that’s an uncharitable summary of your argument.
