Service A is compelled to hand over all the data it has on a user
They comply
Service B is compelled to hand over all the data it has on a user
They comply
“And that’s how it’s done!”
The criticism is that better privacy can be achieved by not saving data, it is a good criticism but I don’t know how legit it is because I don’t know if credit card payments can be processed without saving the data (i would assume yes, if tokenized)
Proton has the disadvantage of having to work with other email services as well, so there’s protocol limitations. When mailing from one Proton mailbox to another, they do intentionally avoid SMTP for this reason, but Signal has the advantage of “owning” the whole protocol, too.
I imagine if you donate with a CC to Signal, they might also be forced to turn that over. The weakness is not in Signal or Proton, but in the Visa/Mastercard duopoly and CC processing in general. Cryptocurrency has some advantages here, but they are outweighed by the abuse, fraud, speculation, and general dishonestly (and just general failure to be good currencies for “normal” purchases.)
God, I wish more people used Signal
One problem with Signal is that it can be difficult to connect with someone who is on there.
I’ve run into this a couple of times myself. And I’ve had friends run into it too. We know for a fact someone is using Signal, but you can’t find them in the search, even though you have them in your contacts with the correctly formatted number.
Personally, this issue has become a stumbling block for getting people I know to use it more.
Do you have to find a person in search to be able to send them a message?
Yes this is a problem. They use to have it so that you could see all your contacts and you could use it as your normal messenger app and if they also had signal then you get encryption. At least now you can use a username instead of a phone number. Problem with that is you can only have one username. You can change it but that gets messy.
Does that person allow searching by phone number? That is a setting you can disable.
I’ve been using Signal more to test if I can recommend it to other people… it’s mostly like WhatsApp, which is good…
Except, can we please disable all of those god damn popups. Everyday: “Hey! Verify your pin!”, “Hey! Verify your LONG ASS recovery key!”, “Hey, plz donate!”, “HEY! I couldn’t start a backup”, “HEY LOOK AT ME!”
- I have never been asked to verify my recovery key.
- It asks to verify pin once a month. Which I think is fair, since it can help you recover from a lockout / transfer your device.
- backups are important, but they can also be disabled
- Donating to open source projects is important, as it’s a large portion of their funding.
I agree with all your points, BUT I do think Signal could be slightly less “user-hostile” with the reminders, maybe?
I get annoyed at the pop-ups in my Linux system, too, and all of them are got similarly legitimate reasons. Getting the way of my current task (or worse stealing focus) doesn’t even seem like the “right” way for computers/tools to behave.
How obtrusive are the popups? Are you on iPhone or Android? The pin verify popup is like 20% of the screen at the bottom for me. And it’s nearly the same color as the background, so I sometimes don’t even notice it. Or at least, I finally see it and think “how long has that been there?”
I agree that some things can probably be scaled back. But wouldn’t it be an even worse experience if someone forgot their pin, and thus was unable to access their data?
Android and desktop. I’m no UX designer, so I don’t know what the ideal is, but when I’m using the software with a purpose, anything that gets in the way of that purpose is (at best) an annoyance. I’m probably wrong, but I think I’d prefer a passive notification to verify pin / donate / whatever that triggers after/as I leave Signal for something else – a indicator I’m done with my purpose (albeit flawed; maybe I just need to copy info from FF or whatever.)
It asks to verify pin once a month. Which I think is fair, since it can help you recover from a lockout / transfer your device.
Even that is too annoying. OK, I just realized there’s a way to turn off reminders. Trust me bro, I’m not gonna forget. I’m a big boy.
backups are important, but they can also be disabled
Ah! YES! Thanks! I just poked around deeper in the settings and disabled them. Backups are not important to me. I don’t want to backup my messages.
I have never been asked to verify my recovery key.
Maybe it’s because I had backups on? Let’s see if this popup goes away.
Donating to open source projects is important, as it’s a large portion of their funding.
Agreed. Which is why I donate to them… And I still get the popups! I’m already a donor, leave me alone.
Overall, I want to give my attention to my messages, not to Signal. Leave me alone. Let me message people. I don’t want to be nagged. WhatsApp doesn’t nag people nearly as much. I know Signal is overall better, but user annoyances like the excessive popups makes it harder for me to try to convince normal people to use Signal.
One is a messenger the other is using the e-mail protocols, aren’t there differences in how the metadata is possible to be encrypted between those too. Just wonder if this is a fair comparison.
both could log ip addresses and payment info, meta infos like who you message with, both do key management, only saves this stuff and then has to give it to the feds
Email headers need to be unencrypted, unless they had a proprietary “almost like email but not interoperable” protocol. Signal doesn’t have payment info for most users because it’s free to use, but for donations they need to store payment data too.
Yes, both can, but both are not necessary, only 1 is.
I work in digital forensics specifically with emails, and this is not how the email protocol works
Signal and email are 2 different things, completely different
Just saw someone claim Signal was a honeypot the other day. No sources of course and then this info comes out.
I hate this sentiment. I was part of a bachelor party, and we had a group chat going. Had Android/iPhone users, so it was just a MMS chat. I suggested we use signal, and one of the iPhone users goes on a rant
“I’m not gonna use Signal. It’s just a honeypot for the CIA. Why else would they fund it if they didn’t get any value out of. It’s obviously a honey pot”
I’m not gonna use Signal. It’s just a honeypot for the CIA.
No you’re thinking of telegram.
So there is actually disinfo about it being funded by the CIA. I had heard it was, and tbh didn’t care too much. I figured they funded it because they used it and got value. It’s well audited so I trust it. Only learned it’s disinfo when I looked for a source to include in my original reply
https://euvsdisinfo.eu/report/us-intelligences-services-control-the-signal-app/
It is goofy for sure. Nobody that claims it is one ever supplies proof beyond “trust me, bro” or they get screechy and hostile when you ask for sources.
Host your own matrix server
Do they think MMS is magically invisible?
This is why it’s always struck me as unreasonable for proton to claim they care about user privacy. If they did, they wouldn’t provide an email service, as it is inherently impossible to adaquately protect the metadata if it is sent to a different mail server. A better approach would be for them to explain why you can have email or privacy, but not both, and to point people to a separate service if they insist on email, so it is decoupled from any of their other services. Accepting payment through a means that isn’t tied to your personal identity would be a good step too.
That seems a little disingenuous. Just because email can’t be protected well in most cases, doesn’t mean you can’t have a service that cares about privacy and does whatever is possible.
Google can train AI on your email, and then when I go make an alternative that doesn’t do that, you will say I don’t care about privacy? What is that, no true Scotsman? Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. Even with all these issues, Proton is more private than Gmail.
They provide a suite of services, most of which can be provided in a private manner. Blowing a hole in that by providing email seems counter productive. As I said, they could point you at a separate email service. Even if they provided that service it could ensure an adaquate break between the private services and and the non-private.
As a service, is it more privacy conscious than, say, Gmail? Yes, but you’re still ultimately just asking the postman not to read your postcards.
Accepting payment through a means that isn’t tied to your personal identity would be a good step too.
They do accept bitcoin, and if that’s not private enough, they also let you mail them cash in an envelope.
Mailing cash is probably less private. Your mail is postmarked, and can be tracked. The serial numbers on the bills can be tracked too. Not to mention the envelope itself, fingerprints, possible DNA in the saliva when you licked it to seal it, your handwriting or printing to address it, how unique the stamp is…
That’s only a concern if Proton keeps all the envelopes people send them, and the authorities are willing to sift through them all and check the fingerprints on them one by one.
Sorry frongt, but I think you’re wrongt, haha. I don’t think mailing cash is less private than other methods.
If anyone was concerned enough to the point they were sending cash, they might also take precaution to send coins instead of notes, wearing gloves when handling them, folding their own envelope - do people still lick envelopes anymore? - using lettering stamps instead of handwriting…
Forgive me for the joke on your username, made me laugh.
Only if all that information is collected and stored. Digital finance systems tend to track every transaction and keep a record of them (because of legal requirements among other reasons). With cash in an envelope a government can’t check all the info you suggested a year after the payment has happened, perhaps not even after a few days.
True. I’m thinking of what they can collect after they’ve already decided to target you.
Ok, so in what other way should they allow anonymous payments?
Ah, thats good to know, I looked at their signup page and it didn’t have those options listed.
That is exactly what they did, the user used a credit card with their damn name on it, while Proton even allows you to send them cash money for the service.
The FBI filed a MLAT (Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty) request which was processed by the Swiss Federal Department of Justice and Police.
The Swiss gave a legal binding order to Proton to hand over information that they had, the only information that was handed over was the payment identifier.
I don’t get why people get hung up on a company complying with a legal order by their justice system, especially with Proton that could not hand over any more information.
Same. It’s not like these companies can just say no to legal orders within the bounds of their laws. I also think a fair number of users that get outraged over it aren’t big on actually reading the privacy policies for the services they use. IMO Proton didn’t do anything surprising here if one reads that policy.
The issue is them having any info to give out in the first place, it is a horrendous transgression for a shop that touts privacy as their thing.
Signal demonstrated that you can decouple payment info from account info and thus they ain’t got nothing to produce, MLAT or not. The least Proton coulda done is mimic that tech.
Proton even allows you to send them cash money for the service.
They won’t accept Scottish bank notes tho >: (
I have pointed this out to protards many times. The fact is there are solutions to not keeping this data on their servers. Then they have the audacity to blame the user.
A company that was concerned about privacy and not money would have already moved this data off their servers. Proton is a garbage company.
Signal demonstrated that you can decouple payment info from account info
How did Signal demonstrate this? Signal is not a paid subscription service
I donated them money once. I wonder if they still have a trace of it.
Signal supports payments between users
Indeed, but those are crypto payments from a third party crypto wallet. It’s also between users and not recurring, so Signal has no reason to keep the data.
That is not really the same, Signal is a donation and Proton is a subscription where a monthly (or yearly) request has to go to the payment provider for your fee, for this you need to keep the payment information on file and linked to the account. Signal can say I got donated by someone but they do not need to keep this information linked to a specific user, just the payment record (that still has your cc/bank details on it) for tax purposes.
The least Proton coulda done is mimic that tech.
Proton even allows you to send them cash money for the service.
Still shame that they can’t do it if you pay by card. Being able to send periodic payment by cash is fine but it’s a bad excuse to claim that there are no improvements.
Proton allows payment with cash, so you can stay private, but if you use your credit card, your company will know and they have to store it in some way.
Not Protons fault in this case.
They don’t have to store it.
if i ran a privacy focused company, i would keep records that are just wrong and dont link to correct people at all. If i actually need to make records maybe i would make somekind of system where i personally can use them, kind of like extra cypher on top of everything else that would transform/pick the useless data into actual data. So if someone demands the records and i just have to give them, i’ll just give them -> they cant get anything out of them anyway.
Can’t demand me to be competent too 🤷♂️ maybe i would give excuse that i used ai to wibe code the thing
and it has a paid client app, too
When a service can only hand over a timestamp, that’s when you know the encryption is doing its job. 🔐
On one side you have a free software, on the other you have a paid service. If you pay for that service with a credit card, of course they’ll have your name.
This is like comparing walking across town to hiring an Uber and being annoyed the Uber keeps a record of the transaction.
Proton = Protrump
Man I wish my old account were banned. I’d point out so many comments and you all screeching that proton would protect you🤣
Too bad that simplex is buggy and doesn’t work, or else I would rant how proton requires a phone number to signup and the server side of the app is centralised and proprietary.
Unfortunately as things are now, signal is the only e2ee app (that supports voice calls) that works.
SimpleX works well for me. What problems have you had with it?
No it’s not lol
…email will inherently be a lot less secure than messaging, no matter what you do.
If you truly want to be private about something, don’t email it lol
Or go talk to the other person out in the middle of a field somewhere without your phones. And I’m not even 100% sure anymore that that would work. Like, maybe the lanternflies are bugged (pun intended).
Well I’d suggest a forest instead but anyway depends how you get there :
- look up online how? there might be now a path on a server to your target destination
- disconnect phone in a pattern that’s usually not how you use it? more surveillance
- public transport tracking, plate tracking until you leave the city
- rough estimation on your direction then follow up with drones tracking you, if it’s 100m high it’s hard to notice
… anyway, ending the paranoia comment ;)
Don’t forget facial recognition! Then just in case you decided to wear a mask, gait recognition!
Membership in the Ministry of Silly Walks about to pay off!
The bird surveillance system is always watching. Remember birds aren’t real!
Flying tape recorders.
Is it really so hard to make it secure? If both parties are using some kind of secure email client, couldn’t the clients just encrypt and decrypt the subject/content?
The main issue is that in reality, 95%+ of people aren’t using an encrypted service. So it’s proton to Gmail usually
Sure but this is very similar to messaging isn’t it? Like most of my friends use WhatsApp, but a few people use signal and that number is increasing.
At least with email, a single client could presumably send encrypted emails to others when possible, and regular emails when not. Add opposed to messaging where I cannot send messages from signal to WhatsApp
no matter what you do.
Even PGP?
…TBF, getting your counterparty to also use PGP is the heavy lift there.
Security yes, privacy not especially.
PGP lets you encrypt the messages and sign them to digitally prove you sent them.
It doesn’t help with the problem here which is that the metadata of who you are (the IP used to log into the webmail and the email address of the sender) and who you’re talking to (the email of the recipient) and when (timestamps etc.) were able to be leaked.
In fact, depending on the implementation, PGP could be considered slightly worse for privacy because you’d have the added identity proof of the message having a signature that only you could create with your private key (although that’s encrypted, it’s a stronger identity proof than the sender email address). It also generally leaks the recipients’ key IDs too (although that’s configurable) PGP is great for accountability, message confidentiality and non-repudiation. Not so much for privacy. For that you’d need other systems.
Good point re: metadata. Keeping that private is an underrated aspect of security.
People like Jeffrey Epstein running one of the biggest blackmail networks in the planet and at the same time blatantly emailing each other about it from gmail really amazes me. Either they are that stupid or powerful enough that they just don’t care.
proton only encrypts (without PGP) emails between 2 protonmail users
*end-to-end encrypts. All email contents are encrypted on the Proton servers regardless of who they were sent to.
Nothing stops you from pgp encrypting your own mail
yes, PGP is the exception to the protonmail encryption
