- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- lemmyshitpost@lemmy.world
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How insanely toxic is their poop though?
They squirt shit on their feet like hand sanitizer.
Well, if it chemically destroys the pathogens, not very.
Vultures are metal af.
that would kill almost anything else
Guess what: It’s fact check time!!
Anthrax: ❌
Most birds are naturally resistant to anthrax because of their higher body temperature.
Botulism (actually botox, botulism is the illness caused by botox. You can’t quite eat an illness): ✅
“Botulism is one of the most toxic substances in the world, and [turkey vultures’] guts are filled with this bacteria, which apparently has no effect on them,” says Graves.
(Yes, the article made the same mistake)
Rabies: ❌
All warm-blooded species, including humans, may become infected with the rabies virus. Birds were first artificially infected with rabies in 1884; however, infected birds are largely, if not wholly, asymptomatic, and recover.
Cholera (actually avian cholera, which is distinct from “normal” cholera): ❓
Besides chickens, the disease also concerns turkeys, ducks, geese, raptors, and canaries.
So 2/4 diseases are already irrelevant for birds but they sound scary because they infect humans. But:
Avian cholera barely even counts because it’s caused by “Pasteurella multocida” while (human) cholera is caused by “Vibrio cholerae”. The two bacteria are genetically as closely related as humans and mammoths. And avian cholera does not kill anything but birds.
–
This isn’t to degrade the vulture’s ability to withstand pathogens and toxins, that is still very impressive. It’s just that obviously birds are immune to most human diseases, as pathogens don’t tend to easily jump between distant species.
And even if they DO jump between species, they usually do not bring their “deadliness” with them (unless they produce poison like botox) as different species react completely differently. Maybe rabies is the one exception, as adjusting the behavior of your host by rummaging around in the brain has some universally negative side effects.
ok so they still carry it so it can infect and spread
Just wanted to note that botox is actually just a shortening of botulinum toxin. The organism that produces it is Clostridium botulinum.
The cleanup crew doesn’t fuck around
Vultures have been shown to reduce the spread of dangerous infectious diseases at scale.
Now if only we could bioengineer our own stomachs to be that powerful
In the game Mass Effect, the Krogan race has all these “backup” organs. They pretty much evolved to become incredibly resilient.
But they also become alpha douches.
Either way, I love those little guys.
Krogans were heavily inspired by Klingons.
There are sure to be tradeoffs which would explain why not every animal have evolved similar stomachs. It’s probably expensive energy wise to maintain that acidity. It probably also makes it hard to maintain a healthy gut flora. Also imagine the burn if you vomit up stomach acid with pH 1.0
probably has a very thick mucus layer, plus a robust stomach to withstand the low ph.
Also imagine the burn if you vomit up stomach acid with pH 1.0
Instant free ranged weapon!
Me suddenly feeling nauseous when a cop walks by
X-Force!
Betcher’s Gland was present in the Primarchs, we’re looking at around 28,000 years.
Much more achievable for the common man
Yes, but they can projectile vomit as a defense mechanism. Imagine the possibilities.
Human stomach acid is as low as PH 1.5
We are descended from scavengers
The acid we make is PH 0.8, it goes to 1.5 when mixed with the other gastric juices
Then why is food poisoning so common?
Can’t we identify the genes responsible for their stomach formation and CRISPR them unto humans, theoretically giving them the same abilities?
Can’t we identify the genes responsible for their stomach formation
Absolutely.
and CRISPR them unto humans, theoretically giving them the same abilities?
Absolutely not.
CRISPR and related techniques are not magic. The interplay between gene presence and trait expression is absurdly more complicated than that. You cannot simply “edit in” entire biological adaptations, that’s not how it works.
The most likely scenario in such an attempt would simply be nothing. Other possibilities include: Autoimmune lifelong digestive system issues, and death, amongst many others.
To add on to this, vultures stomach acid pH ranges between 0 and 1.
So unless you’re also modifying the stomach and gut tissue to be able to withstand hydrochloric acid I’m pretty sure that (if successful, which is a big if) that person just dies.
Vulture pH is closer to 0.2, ours is closer to 2.
it’s 10x more acidic than ours, so yeah, we would need to probably refine the entire digestive system
~100x it’s a logarithmic scale
I mean, our stomach acid is hydrocloric acid. Just ours isn’t nearly as concentrated.
Considerably less so, but yes I should have specified the concentration
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic
Yes. after it reaches a certain point of maturity. Gene editing hasn’t.
We have to start somewhere
And that “somewhere” is optogenetics mice, bacteria that produce egg whites, and glowing fish. Not a complete rewrite of the entire human digestive, immune and microbiotic systems!
Also rabies immunity is because they’re birds not mammals, if you want that; add nervous system and metabolic overhauls as well.
Biggest hurdle to just experiment by randomly crispr-editing in humans are ethical, as a society the majority does not want a repeat of experiments similar to Mengeles twins.
Even though I would love to edit myself to be able to digest lignin and cellulose
Ethics are a big hurdle, but I wouldn’t call it the biggest. Mengele was a conscienceless monster who played at pseudo science.
The biggest hurdle to gene editing is that it’s fucking hard. Even Mengele V2.0 with no morals and a stable of daily test subjects wouldn’t lead to a ‘mastery’ that lets you merely select for your changes to only include digesting lignin and cellulose.
Seriously. It’s really hard to even model within acceptable error margins, what the results of gene therapy will be. The potential for disastrous results also only goes up the more complex the interactions you’re trying to affect.
At current time, even some of the best recorded attempts which are decidedly positively quality of life altering (e.g. [emphasis mine] https://www.science.org/content/article/gene-editing-therapy-made-just-6-months-helps-baby-life-threatening-disease) still come with great caveats:
The boy, first treated in February at just 7 months old, still needs a special diet and medication; the experimental therapy alone isn’t enough to prevent a dangerous buildup of ammonia in his blood caused by a faulty gene for a key liver enzyme. Still, the swift development of a gene editor that appears to have repaired the defect in some of his liver cells is a landmark demonstration of a personalized approach that has tantalized rare disease researchers.
Meanwhile, even renowned institutions starting from best intentions, get it horribly wrong, because the interactions are just that hard to model (e.g. [emphasis mine] https://www.science.org/content/article/exclusive-death-girl-chinese-gene-editing-trial-was-never-made-public):
That vague language glossed over tragedy: Seven days after the girl’s medical team infused trillions of viruses carrying the recipe for the base editor into her spinal fluid, she died of a severe immune reaction linked to the therapy, Science and Retraction Watch can now reveal.
In a possible future, itself perhaps locked in to some other timeline, your dreams may be possible for your grandchildren and great-grandchildren. But today, they’re just as likely to get you dead.
If Im honest I just wish for humanity to be able to treat chromosome issues and lethal fetal issues.
Let trendy transhumanism and cellulose digestion stay on the pages of fiction. I used Mengele as the worst breaker of ethics and horrible practises I could think of
That’s the goal.
Progress is trying to march in that direction. It’s just subtly (I.e, not something PopSci usually covers) one of the hardest scientific undertakings of our time.
I also don’t feel as though neither enough attention nor funding is being directed that way currently.
when you can digest cellulose but you lose 90% of your daily fiber and get colon cancer
Still sounds like a better and more likely survivable outcome than elon musk’s chances of having a positive and interesting interaction with a woman (from the woman’s perspective of course). If that occurs it may create a blackhole.
unlikely, as human suffer from gerd, and acid reflux, might be more harmful than good. the bearded vulture likely has other things in play to prevent the acid from digesting itself.
I like that account name. It’s not “nature friends” or “interesting nature facts” it tells you to please “GIVE A SHIT about Nature” or fuck off.
And yet they have the mark of shame
Could be before it cost money?
My dog eats a lot of nasty stuff too. If it’s not any good, it comes back up.
Fun fact: rats can’t vomit.
A sea cucumber eats and shits through the same opening.
makes sense why rat poison works so well.
That’s one of the reasons humans and dogs created such a good symbiotic relationship. They would eat things, like waste and refuse, that if left around would make humans sick. They got an easy meal and we got protection from food borne illness and rodents.
I remember reading an article once about how difficult it is to make dog food. Because they have to make it appealing to dogs while at the same time not making it so gross that humans would be turned off at the site and smell of it.
Our stomach acidity is pretty low too.
Looking it up I just read that our gastric acid is produced at PH 0.8
It’s immediately increased to PH 1.5 by the other gastric juices, then is increased more as it is used to digest
People who eat one or two meals a day probably have very acidic stomach acid at each meal; those who snack constantly or eat 5 meals a day probably never see strong stomach acid except maybe at breakfast
A vulture has gastric acid with a pH of approximately 1. Which is equivalent to 100% pure hydrochloric acid.
The acidic component of a human’s gastric acid is hydrochloric acid. The overall pH of our gastric acid is between 1 and 3, which is similar to carrion eating carnivores and lower than most mammals.
However, the secretion of acid in the stomach (in humans) is tightly regulated by the body, with acid being secreted during digestion and then neutralized after the fact.
So, someone who eats a lot will have gastric juices with a more consistently low pH. Unless you just really like chowing down on baking soda and lye, in which case, why?
Funny. The thing I found said the stomach acid was strongest in a fasted state, I didn’t read its reference for that state, 'cause I don’t usually bother reading too deeply on what amounts to a “humans are pretty remarkable” comment.
Incidentally I don’t like Wikipedia on anything diet or digestion related as they are not allowed to reference primary research, and what makes it to newspapers is the information with money behind it. I don’t want Coca-Cola and Unilever’s take on human health.
I’ve always wondered about this. The bacteria itself isn’t usually the problem, its the compounds they shit out right? So like, are their livers just beastly? How are they metabolizing all those crazy nerve agents?
so you’re saying vultures are basically flying garbage bins?
That’s bin chickens.
Compost bins, but yes
the pic on the lef tis a beared vulture, lammageir, its stomach acid is has unusually lower ph(high acidity) compared to other vultures, because its bones. the acid also destroys bacteria, parasites and viruses , mostly.
Sadly the drugs we inject into cows, mainly NSAIDs, cause them to go into liver failure. This lead to large declines in populations, which in turn caused even worse problems because they weren’t eating the diseased carcuses, so other animals would eat them and spread the diseases. Fun times when we think we can control nature.
its diflenic, the nsaid, like most nsaids they mess with the stomach acid of people(causing acid reflux, and likewise it has a greater affect on the vultures.
Reminds me of the Sky burial done in Tibet. I guess this way you have also less diseases.
Sadly, due to a certain drug in dead livestock is causing death in vultures the practice has started to have issues. This was a great podcast about the practice and issue: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/579-towers-of-silence/
Diclofenac. It is now banned for veterinary use in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal. But vulture populations will take decades to recover. Sadly, diclofenac is still used in Spain and some other European countries, and can impact local vulture species.
Sky burial is fine as humans do not eat that much diclofenac anyway, but just to be safe they are banned in China (but not in India or Nepal) for the bodies of people who died of infectious diseases.
