China is bad, just not nearly as bad as the US anymore.
china gets shit on because they don’t have political freedom; there’s no stuff like “you can speak your mind as long as you’re respectful”. it’s just one committee making all the decisions and you can go to jail for disagreeing.
the problem with that is that it effectively creates a circle of yes-men around a central figure, which is very very bad. every sane government allows at least respectful disagreement and dialogue with critics because it’s an important tool to stay on track and sane long-term. critics can often have valid points and keep an empire from making a grave mistake.
that being said, china did a lot for its citizens and deserves more recognition. especially that they invested in solar energy is a stellar example of good long-term thinking and the advantages that central planning can have.
because they don’t have political freedom. there’s no stuff like “you can speak your mind as long as you’re respectful”
And the West definitely, absolutely has that
To be fair i speak my mind in a disrespectful way daily of the shit stained leader of the usa. They just let me do it.
Lol try actually activating against him. They let you speak until the instant they think you might change something and have gotten really good at gauging that.
i mean yeah, literally, look at how the Iranian regime is allowed to post its anti-US propaganda lego movies on Twitter.
Look at how many people have been arrested and jailed for saying “From the river to the sea”
yeah the UK is going downhill very quickly and it’s evident in how nervously they respond to that saying.
Who said anything about the UK?
Yeah, how amazing that I can see anti-US propaganda Lego movies whenever I want. That’s what will ignite the revolution that makes our lives better, really some serious dissent that can conceivably lead to real change here.
Shitposts and memes about dissent to satiate the maases while all the real political discourse by activists with any real chance of accomplishing anything are censored and criminalised. It’s genius really.
Since when is Iran a western country?? LMBO! Sounds like you just proved their point
Guess you haven’t been following the news lately.
Yet just as these creative expressions of national resistance reached peak global influence, YouTube jumped in. The platform suspended the Explosive Media channel under baseless allegations of policy violations, effectively silencing a powerful voice of dissent
What followed was a transparent smear campaign by Western media outlets, led by the BBC, aimed at discrediting the creators and justifying the censorship. Their goal was clear: to silence any narrative that dared challenge the official US-Israeli framing of the aggression.
i indeed only found out about that rn
p.s.
Private capital tends to become concentrated in few hands, partly because of competition among the capitalists, and partly because technological development and the increasing division of labor encourage the formation of larger units of production at the expense of smaller ones. The result of these developments is an oligarchy of private capital the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society. This is true since the members of legislative bodies are selected by political parties, largely financed or otherwise influenced by private capitalists who, for all practical purposes, separate the electorate from the legislature. The consequence is that the representatives of the people do not in fact sufficiently protect the interests of the underprivileged sections of the population. Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights.
- Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?
but no again tell me about how the level of political freedom you have differs meaningfully between western societies and China
FYI the thing about a central guy in charge has always been a myth, even since Stalin’s time:
What happens with China is essentially you have local committees for things like small towns and villages, where anyone can run for office. Then those many small councils form the pool of candidates for promotion to larger regional and federal committees, forcing would-be bigwigs to work their way up from the bottom. I believe the DPRK uses a similar system.
Hopefully this doesn’t come off snide, since I know these conversations can get contentious fast. But you seem like a refreshingly normal person rather than one of the ideologically motivated internet cold warriors we often get around here, so I figured I’d try and add constructively instead of tear down.
But a soviet style system like that is ripe for corruption and nepotism.
My system is clearly the best, and its a shithole of corruption and nepotism. Therefore all other systems must be even corrupter and nepotister, otherwise my system wouldn’t be the best Q.E.D.
It’s sad that if I literally see ml I assume the truth is inverted. But even then, you assume too much, it’s good advice to always assume you’re talking to someone smarter than you so you make your argument clear and simple.
Why do you immediately assume communists are the opposite of correct? Not to hyperbolize, but taken to the logical conclusion this is just a belief in fascism.
I don’t consider ml to be communists either, just boot licking imbeciles who don’t understand how obviously dumb they are
Why don’t you consider Marxist-Leninists to be communists? When people think of communists, they think of the ones that studied Marxism and established socialism in real life based on this study. How are the largest and most historically relevant communists secretly not communists? How are billions of people studying Marxism over the last centuries all wrong?
The opposite. From here:
Some Background: History conditions much of our thinking about our political systems and most Western democracies resemble Rome’s in 60 BC when, as Robin Daverman humorously says, three aristocrats–politician Julius Caesar, military hero Pompey and billionaire Crassus–formed a backroom alliance that dominated the elected senate. The oligarchs ensured that proletarii votes changed nothing and that the masses remained invisible unless they rioted or died in one of the elites’ endless civil wars. Two thousand years later, in Britain’s general election of 1784, the son of the First Earl of Chatham and Hester Grenville, sister of the previous Prime Minister George Grenville, and the son of the First Baron Holland and Lady Caroline Lennox, daughter of Second Duke of Richmond, offered voters offered a choice of dukes. Today, in many European countries (even egalitarian Sweden) ‘democracy’ is a mere veneer over powerful feudal aristocracies that still control their economies. American voters recently watched a former president’s wife competing with a former president’s brother being defeated by a billionaire who installed his daughter and son-in-law in important government positions and ensured that, as John Dewey said, “U.S. politics will remain the shadow cast on society by big business as long as power resides in business for private profit through private control of banking, land and industry, reinforced by command of the press and other means of propaganda”. Most Western politicians are related by marriage or wealth and have, like all hereditary classes, lost sympathy with the broad mass of their fellow citizens to the extent that, as American political scientists Martin Gilens and Benjamin Page found, ‘the preferences of the average American appear to have a near-zero, statistically non-significant impact upon public policy’: Testing Theories of American Politics: Elites, Interest Groups, and Average Citizens
But you seem like a refreshingly normal person rather than one of the ideologically motivated internet cold warriors
hehe thanks, i try to be.
You did the thing
You know nothing about China’s political system except the white-supremacist tropes you’ve ingested about it.
china gets shit on because they don’t have political freedom; there’s no stuff like “you can speak your mind as long as you’re respectful”. it’s just one committee making all the decisions and you can go to jail for disagreeing.
what if actually it’s more like you need to know what the fuck you’re talking about in order to Be Political (which involves joining the party and by its nature excludes capitalist roaders and compradors attempting to bring back capitalist systems) and then democracy happens within that party
instead of like a big nameless Committee made up of a hivemind AI like intelligence that just Dictates
maybe that’d be better than having two bourgeois parties (or dozens of bourgeois parties in Europe/etc) owned by bourgeois interests effectively negating the existence of democracy by ensuring that all “democratic” institutions, by consequence of bourgeois influence over parties, operate at their pleasure
source:
china gets shit on because they don’t have political freedom; there’s no stuff like “you can speak your mind as long as you’re respectful”. it’s just one committee making all the decisions and you can go to jail for disagreeing.
Not even true, common CIA talking point. They don’t disagree with their government because 99% of China’s citizens are extremely happy with their gov, not because they’ll be arrested.
Well that’s impossible. There will always be around a 25% of a population that is not happy with the current state of things. That’s been true for all of history. 99% of people are not happy with their government—ever—unless they (the unhappy ones) are being threatened forced or killed off.
After primitive communism, all of history has been the history of a small ruling class over vast working classes. Socialism is class society, but with the working classes, the majority, on top. You’re treating the subject metaphysically and dogmatically assuming true what only in actuality applies to certain contexts.
Maybe engage with the western sources assessing figures of most Chinese people being happy then? Look at the evidence to see instead of claiming a comically evil government forcing or killing everyone?
Lol Uyghurs amiright? 😂
🤔
Lol lets worry about a CIA fake genocide op instead of the real ones happening like in Gaza amiright fellow zionazis? 😂
You are doing genocide denial when you claim that genocide can happen without being accompanied by mass death. Genocide is the crime of crimes because it always involves mass slaughter of innocent people, to bring about their end. The invention of “”“cultural genocide”“” without any of the accompanying mass violence effectively whitewashes genocide as a concept.
Lol bro over here trying to downplay the horrific treatment of a whole people and claim everyone else is the problem 😂
Downplay what? A reeducation/deradicalization program isn’t fucking genocide on its own, and when you say it is you are the one that’s donwplaying the crime of genocide as a concept. Even the boarding schools they used in the genocide in North America had mass graves, because genocide is always accompanied by mass death and to claim otherwise is whitewashing.
It’s the crime of crimes because it’s the worst violence that can be inflicted on a group.
So I’m not trying to defend the other poster but genocide by definition does not have to include mass death. And can include any of the following
- Killing members of the group;
- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
In the real world there hasn’t been a genocide that didn’t involve mass death. 3, 4, and 5 all require a lot of killing to actually work.
A): Hey what do you think about the Russian intervention in the Ukranian civil war, and
B) The horrific treatment such as?
Oh wow, a transphobic lib? So surprising.
I’m genuinely undereducated here, not an op…
Accepting all that, that’s still essentially colonization, no?
Is there nuance I’m missing here? China’s seemingly codified cultural repression genuinely makes it hard for me to consider supporting them, whether or not they advance the cause of the average worker
They also don’t do cultural genocide, look at videos of random tourists visiting Xinjiang and you’ll see some locals speaking Uyghur, you’ll see mosques, museums, traditional Uyghur food, etc. The previous repression was meant to curve terrorism, it seems to have worked, and things have relaxed afterwards. I don’t see how any of this fits the picture of colonialism.
Meant to curb terrorism. Lol. Sure.
We weren’t all born yesterday. We’ve heard all this before.
There’s literal footage of the terrorist acts. Do you expect China to let terrorists slaughter civilians?
Well it certainly doesn’t fit the picture I was described! I was told Uyghers were being killed in some cases, and rehoused en masse in others.
If what you’re saying is right, and the Uygher culture is allowed to continue unharried outside of radical minorities then I would agree that doesn’t really compare to the horrors of colonization!
Is it actually illegal to be queer there too? Or is that also exaggerated?
It isn’t illegal to be queer, but gay marriage isn’t really legal either. It’s an upbill battle ironically held back by the fact that the PRC is a democratic country, and the older generations are still more socially conservative. As time goes on it has been getting better.
In addition to the older generations thinking queerness is yucky, there’s also the problem of the West using our rights as a bludgeon to justify sanctions and wars. I’ve seen Westerners try to justify the genocide in Gaza because “they’d throw you off a roof for being queer!” As if Israel isn’t actively blackmailing us into being informants by threatening to out us to our families.
This is all to say that anti-queer sentiment has become deeply rooted among the masses, themselves.
Ah, bummer. I’m aware of how it’s used in identity politics, but I’d never considered how that use might foster distrust in an already culturally repressive populace. Sounds complicated, and I’m sure the aftereffects of imperialism haven’t done anything to help the nations they left devastated feel positively about a trend they might identify as foreign in that way.
God damn, you actually checked it out. I’m genuinely not used to that level of intellectual honesty on the internet
When we look at how colonization in the real world we see it is accomplished, again, through mass death. See: Israel
I largely agree, though Israel has used many nonlethal methods for a long time. There is a lot of violence involved in the process that doesn’t require death. Forced relocation is a pretty classic tactic, for example, which Israe has made ample use of in their ongoing genocide
The point is those “non-lethal” methods only work because they are backed by “lethal” ones.
The violence requires death, is the thing. People don’t just allow themselves to be forcibly relocated (as per your example), they will fight to stay on their land unless they face the threat of death (and many do stay, and die). Behind every “nonlethal” process is a death machine that makes it possible in the first place. That’s why colonization is always accomplished through mass death.
I’m trying not to get too caught up in semantics here. It sounds like you’re saying that the relocation that the Chinese government puts Uygher people through cannot be comparable to the relocation that other cultures have been put through, and that the lack of a mass death toll is serviceable evidence for that claim. Do I have that correct?
If so, it’s a good point! I think I had a presumption that the true nature of their (and any government’s) crimes was hidden. It does seem a bit far-fetched that it would be possible to cover up the kind of mass death that you’re saying would come with a colonization, so it’s a more reasonable metric than just making assumptions based on vibes I suppose. You’ve at least given me a less propagandizeable thing to research _
I suppose apartheid can be used instead of cultural genocide.
It would be just as incorrect
China isn’t preventing or discouraging intermarrying or intermixing with Uighurs, which is a key feature of apartheid. Neither do they have to use separate lanes of the road, carry special IDs marking their ethnicity, or forced to use different emergency shelters.
I use those examples because the real-world example of apartheid, Israel, is currently doing all of those things today.
Violence breeds violence, more news at 11.
Can you find evidence of even a single dead Uyghur?
Yeah, my buddy Uyghur Jim. He told me that China killed him, so we can’t hang out any more.
RIP, hope he gets better
A lot of pro China on Lemmy lately, can we turn the propaganda down a bit.
A lot of pro Zionism lately especially out of .world, can we turn the zionazis down a bit.
Average .world zionazi comment LMBO!
Lemmygrad.ml is Marxist-Leninist, Lemmy.ml is the dev instance and the devs are MLs, so there’s a lot of overlap but nothing firm.
It literally isn’t.
.ml is the TLD for Mali.
You actually are experiencing the propaganda being turned down, it’s just that a fish doesn’t notice the water until it’s gone. The anti-China orthodoxy that is the default in western ruling class political thought is the astroturfed position, not the other way around.
Most people here were taught the same bs about China and we broke away from that by sitting down, reading and looking at the (lack of) evidence for everything they’re accused of. China isn’t perfect, none of us claim it is, it also isn’t at all what state department propaganda claims
It’s possible to simultaneously think there are issues with the Chinese government and U.S. government. You could mention 3 June 1989 I’m China or Epstein files in the U.S.
Sure, and most communists do have their issues with the CPC. The important thing is that those issues are based in fact rather than the wild and lurid stories that the Epstein empire tells about the people it’s afraid of.
issues with the Chinese government
name one
Weegir tinymen squared free the dolly llama
My issue is they have not invited me to become a chinese citizen. Not so great now are they 😤
Found the “boTh cAn bE bAd” lib comment
Okay, I just got a great idea (or maybe I’m just way to tired to think straight). We should make a weekly (or daily?) lib bingo where everyone has a different bingo card and if you have a bingo you post in the weekly lib bingo thread (maybe with sources to the comments you found that give you a bingo). Oh and everyone who has a bingo just replies “bingo” to the lib comment (and maybe with a picture of the card).
We need at least sixteen lib comment tropes for a four by four game or 24 for a five by five game with a free field in the middle. I’ll start to list some:
- both sides / two things can be true (false equivalence)
- lapping up CIA propaganda unquestioned (this covers most instances of comments on China, North Korea, Soviet Union, etc. it would be too easy, if we made separate fields for all of those)
- selective scrutiny (suddenly very careful about sources when reality is biased against their prejudice, ready to believe in any conspiracy theory or to make one up to save their world view)
- empathy gap racism (“I just don’t feel emotionally invested in bad things, when they happen to non-white people.”)
- “That’s authoritarian! Why no, I can’t provide a definition.” (it’s code for anti-imperialism)
- “violence against fascists makes you a fascist”
- vote blue no matter who
- having no memory at all
- Nordic countries “social democracy” is the best possible system
- colonialism is a thing of the past
- the most radical political activity possible is pre-scheduled, non-violent, non-constructive protest, everything else is terrorism
I could make a card, but I need more lib-tropes and shorter names for them.
If you have to go back forty years to find an issue with China, that’s incredibly complimentary.
Clearly not here! Apparently only praise for China allowed!
Not allowed to dislike all governments! Only western ones!
Western chauvinists are so fragile that a simple insistence on facts over propaganda makes them feel like they’re in a dire civilizational struggle, and in a way they are. Just on the wrong side.
What exactly did happen in tianimen square that is equivelent to the epstien files?
See this is how I know yall aren’t serious.
Having acquired the knowledge that all the enemies to the empire weren’t serious, the protagonist of reality went back to brunch. The end.
3 June 1989 I’m China
on, tinyman square, lol
it’s funny how the image of tanks crushing people is more solidified in the minds of westerners than what happened, which there is video proof of, which is none of that and also the tanks leaving
Oh no! You’ve poked the liberal hive now LMBO
You forget the part where they hear China is bad from their friends
you mean their occupied subjects not friends.
I think they meant that we’re also propagandized by our peers
If, over the next 10 years, your country became more and more like China, would you go along with the changes? Would you have any problems with the transformation?
- modern electricity grid quickly moving away from fossil fuels
- high speed train network
- cheap fresh produce
- affordable housing
- transitioning to socialism via the development of productive forces
- strong investment in education and R&D
- quickly advancing tech in almost every sector that matters
- people-directed governance that is not subservient to capital (foreign or domestic)
- very low crime
- ecological restoration that won’t get cancelled by the next elected administration
- cheap and good quality healthcare
- bold long term vision and consistent achievement of it over time
objectively better than just about any other place
but but have you considered the abstract values???
Your list should include pros and cons. Which is your country?
They’ve been around, as a civilization, for over 5,000 years. I’d like to think you don’t make it that long without doing a thing or 2 right.
Eh. The US has been around just as long as a civilization. If the Chinese get to claim credit for the radically different ancient predecessors to modern China, then the US can claim decent from both the ancient Native American civilizations as well as the ancient Middle Eastern civilizations that are ultimately the predecessors of many countries such as the US.
The US has been around just as long as a civilization. If the Chinese get to claim credit for the radically different ancient predecessors to modern China, then the US can claim decent from both the ancient Native American civilizations
The US is a settler colonial project that carried out an extermination campaign and genocide of hundreds of native tribes, and stole their land. Settlers have no right to claim descent from the people (they’re still) trying to exterminate. Unlike South America, there’s not even a genetic heritage; the US colonialist just killed every indigenous person they found, or put them into reservations.
Neither the PRC nor most ME countries are settler ones. The number of settler-colonial countries is tiny: the US, Canada, Israel, Australia, New Zealand, are the main ones.
BWAHAHA!
China is absolutely a settler-colonialist state. How do you think 90% of the population ended up Han Chinese? Chinese cultural extermination goes back millennia.
Kinda sounds more like you need other countries’ history to be described in the same terms that apply to the United States, so you can dismiss it all as “just the way the world is” without having to examine how that history informs our present.
The education is also non-competitive and crippling for the not-so-gifted students, yes?
Because I don’t hear about many student suicides (specifically due to stress and pressure) outside of the Asian countries.
Selective hearing, racist edition
incredible
I specifically mentioned Asian and including China.
So…Please give me now a comparison to western societies like EU countries (or US if it easier to find statistics)
C O P E
Thanks for providing the requested chart.
Side note:
Jesus christ are you all zealots for china. Please get your dick inside back in your trousers
If you like the country so much, I hope you are on the way to move there…Sorry that you got banned and hexbear’s “left unity” shit on you. Left wing chuds hate being questioned.
You can just admit to being wrong without trying to insult everyone that was correct.
I wish my country became more like China over the next decade
i would literally kill for half the amenities they have in China.
Given that I live in the US Empire, a number of things will go differently for socialist construction. The US Empire is de-industrialized, and is a settler-colony. Decolonization and re-industrialization will both be required. However, certain aspects of China’s experience with socialism will also be experienced by the socialist state replacing the US Empire in this hypothetical, and I support that as well.
I really don’t know what it’s like in China because I’ve never been there. I know some people who are from China but they’ve never really talked about anything other than visiting their families. All I hear comes from the US propaganda machine, so I can’t really have an informed opinion. This is probably how it should be for like 95% of Americans. We don’t need to have an opinion about everything ffs.
Westerners today have so much in common with their inquisition and crusades predecessors. They replaced Christianity with Western Liberalism and they fight for it with the same zeal. Either you adopt their values and systems or you are an evil heathen who must be destroyed.
Makes even more sense one you realize that the inquisition and witch hunts were deeply intertwined with the forceful establishment of capitalism
There’s an interesting blog that analyzes the transition of political economy from medieval europe to the rise of capital through a perspective of the mechanics of occult practices. It’s pretty well thought out and compares church occult practices and their relations to “capital occultism” via social relations and rituals.
This post is about how money aka capital is transmuted to embody commodified labor value in a similar structure of social relations (“occult magic”) as the holy cracker being consecrated and transmuted to embody the flesh of Jesus Christ.
https://ianwrightsite.wordpress.com/2021/11/25/dark-eucharist-of-the-real-god/
The previous post is also quite good that covers the concept of Marx’s “real god” that is manifested via the capital imperative to continuously increase profit and accumulation.
All states are bad, but if we’re talking about which ones are arguably better or worse on the world stage…
“USA USA USA, WE’RE NUMBER 1!”
Proudly colonizing for 250 years?
Power for things like colonizing is the best indicator of a successful state. End state power. I like that the original was intended as a slight against anarchists. States keep projecting that vertical energy.
Seems to be what people do. America isn’t the first or the only one. People are shit is that your argument?
“If I don’t steal it, someone else will”
That’s actually a statistical error.
Most people are alright. Power-hungry individuals responsible for colonialism are outliers and should not have been counted (or allowed to reach/stay in positions of power)
“All people are colonizers. Those who aren’t colonizing aren’t people” - colonizer brain in action.
Ruzzia = Drunk bad Murika = stupid as shit bad, gun boom boom pan pan stupid and bad China = smart bad, but still very bad
Its like comparing the Federation and the Empire from elite dangerous lol.
Empire elitists always talking about how bad the Federation is because of the insane capitalist abuse of power, and billions of humans subjected to horrific conditions.
And then Federation liberals talking about how the Empire literally has legalized slavery and a monarchy that runs on the death of humans.
Although technically there’s also the stereotypical Asian CEO who has a 15% discount on all ships and modules in his systems, so I guess that’s probably the successor to Ali Express lol.
That all being said, the post above this is an article trying to explain how China plating 78 billion trees was a bad idea lmao.
Star Wars and other movie tropes. This is theory for some people. Absolutely infantile.
No you see the USA is Snape, China is Voldemort
I’m dying
If you can find me a governance representing more than 100 million people that is genuinely good, with no ifs ands or buts about it, I can prove that you are the brainwashed one.
Why does it need to be perfect to be good?
Hmm, must be an llm, they never said the word perfect. They never said anything had to be perfect.
How does that feel?
Well kind of funny because it’s not at all comparable to what you’re trying to compare it to. Also I never called anyone an llm I asked if they used it as it left an artefact.
How does that feel?
Embarassing in a secondhand way?
I need it to stop doing evil things first. I am all for reducing the evil, less evil is always great and ill always vote for a lesser evil. But dont expect me to a government structure good if it is still doing evil things. Ill call a politician good if they want to decrease the evil. But I will not call a country good if its still evil.
Ok. So all you’ve done is come up with a definition that means every country is evil, making it pointless to even talk about.
It’s wild to me that grown adults still use “good” and “evil” as an actual heuristic
K.
Of course evil is an actual heuristic - what point are you trying to make here?
This whole post is brigaded. No where on the internet is safe.
Brigaded by whom?
If anything, done by people like them. A ML user posted this in ML itself, some of the folks from other instances come in with bad faith and/or bullcrap arguments, other ML users come in to defend and debunk, and we’re apparently the ones brigading in our own space.
Muhahahaha
If you don’t like seeing commies don’t come to spaces where we hang out lol
That’s right, we’re everywhere and we’re coming for you👻
It’s a useless heuristic, because it’s a fuckin magical metaphysical one. If you’re not a christian who believes in a spirit world, then stop letting the church define reality for you. Good and evil as concepts have no more valence on physical reality than karma or sin, and have no power to explain things that happen.
Children think in good and evil. Adults think in cause and effect. Be scientific.
Does River think their special for calling an unspecified murder a cause and effect instead of an evil? I dont think in a Christian way. I still think its fucking normal to call shit evil instead of explaining how the effects of murder are painful for the following litany of reasons
I have a question, what is your opinion on lesser evil? Is America the lesser evil in your opinion?
America is evil. There are politicians who are lesser evils within the usa. They dont make the US not evil, just less evil.
I don’t know individual politicians in china, but im sure there are plenty of lesser evil politicians there. That doesnt mean china isnt also doing evil things. I hope the evil reduces there. And in the usa. And everywhere else.
What are the evil things that China is doing? And on that note, what are these “lesser evil” politicians? Are you equating China as on the same level of evil as the US?
Here’s two examples of evil things that China is doing:
Persecution of Uyghurs in China
Internet censorship in Chinalol did you just google “evil things china does” and paste the first wikipedia links you find?
The Uyghurs genocide that’s ongoing was shoved down our throats for years yet you people forget? Uh huh.
Do you deny the white genocide in south africa?
was shoved down our throats for years
I wonder why!
Awww, baby’s first analysis! Do the good guys wear the white hats (and the bad guys the black hats) so you know exactly who they are?
Good grief. You presumably have a brain, please try and use it. This is no way to have an adult conversation.
The world is super complicated and nuanced and im sick of people pretending that china is this bastion of good governance and im sick of people pretending that Harris would have been just as bad as trump. If you cant get on board with that, block me
Ha, still angry you sold your soul to a genocidaire who lost
Trump accelerated the genocide 1000 fold. I didnt sell out for shit, I was trying to save lives.
Absolutely wild to try and assert that westerners who think China is good are “brainwashed”. Like literally you are doing the meme.
I don’t care if they are against capitalism, I’m not simping for authoritarians.
Aah yes unlike never authoritarian capitalist governments that totally don’t break in your house to throw you in the cold bitter streets to die because you couldn’t afford rent and made the property “unprofitable”. The West has no right lecturing anyone over human rights and liberty, they could just discard them from their dictionary if only it didn’t serve as great propaganda against their class enemies.
I haven’t seen a single country that doesn’t love to divide by class.
That’s because a state is itself an instrument of class warfare first and foremost. In some places the rich wield the state against the people, and in other places the people wield the state against the rich.
authoritarians
Thought terminating cliche used by the unintelligent and uninformed to avoid reckoning with reality beyond vibes.
“non authoritarian governments are known to implement mass firewalls and online surveillance”
You clearly don’t understand the purpose of the firewall and the online surveillance is no more than any other country but at least our government is accountable to us as opposed to owned by capital.
the online surveillance is no more than any other country
Hahahaha. Spoken like someone who has never been there or lives in pure ignorance. You just try to use an encrypted chat app while there and see what happens. Or criticise the government.
Oh, you can’t. That VPN…that’ll fix it though. Oh that’s right, they’re illegal.
Just like everywhere else. Hahaha.
You are literally talking to a Chinese person from China, smug liberal dipshittery knows no bounds
Then they fit the second part, living in ignorance. Online surveillance there is measurably worse.
The firewall was created to foster and protect China’s fledgling digital infrastructure and data sovereignty. Many countries regulate foreign platforms and data flows. China built its own ecosystem instead of depending on foreign companies. We have seen what happens when foreign platforms operate without local oversight: Facebook facilitating genocide in Myanmar, coordinated anti-vax disinformation campaigns in Southeast Asia, algorithm-driven radicalization. The firewall makes those kinds of external influence operations harder or close to impossible to run at scale. I support it and so do many others as the alternative is plain to see. Also everyone has a VPN we’re not living in ignorance it is in fact people like yourself who are massively ignorant about us and our country.
I was born and raised here. The VPN is for the firewall which has many reasons to exist and I support, also they’re not illegal. Criticising the government is super common but mostly over mundane stuff because that’s what people care about (there’s a reason the approval even according to Harvard is 95+%). You people are always so arrogant while being so uninformed it’s amazing.
Making a statement that online surveillance there is no different from elsewhere will get you that kind of response tbh. It is measurably worse.
Source: it is known
It simply isn’t. Remember snowden? The NSA? TAO? Pegasus? Our government is simply more open and honest with us (might be a side effect of having real democracy as opposed to a charade put on by bought candidates every 4 years). Also before you say that’s just America, Europe are American vassal states all of these and more (since this is just what has leaked) are deployed against Europeans too and intel is shared in deals like five eyes.
Are they accountable to you or to party members?
To us. There’s a reason that even from Harvard’s research the government has a 95+% approval.
Direct elections reach the township and county levels where voters choose deputies to local people’s congresses. These grassroots deputies constitute the overwhelming majority of all deputies nationwide. Advancement to higher levels requires proven service at lower rungs, ensuring every national deputy has worked up from local material conditions and remains accountable to the masses below.
Grassroots legislative liaison stations and community consultation channels ensure mass input shapes policy at every stage, making democracy a daily practice not a periodic (meaningless) ritual. Whole-process people’s democracy embeds consultation and pilot programs into governance: policies are tested locally, refined through mass feedback, then scaled nationally. This grounds decisions in what we want and need.
All 55 ethnic minorities hold guaranteed representation in the NPC. Farmers and labourers comprise roughly 15% of deputies while professionals and technical personnel make up the remainder.
Even besides all that if you just look at what the Chinese government does as opposed to those owned by capital. Mass poverty alleviation, anticorruption at all levels, massive investment in socially profitable but monetarily unprofitable public services, deflating the housing bubble. These are not the actions of a government only looking out for a select few.
And also the CPC has over 100million members since 2024 that 1 in 14 people are party members not to mind those who aren’t but are active in consulting due to their position such as most engineers and scientists.
You should be skeptical of any poll or survey that presents that level of agreement on anything with that breadth of societal implications.
How do you square the whole Hong Kong protests in regards to the extradition laws? Or the aggression towards Taiwan?
Just because the anglosphere is a socioeconomic nightmare realm of genocide, immiseration and omnipresent propaganda where everyone is at each other’s throats doesn’t mean everywhere else is too.
What you’re saying is you want to be suspicious of data that paints other places in a better light than us, because it makes you feel bad. You then rationalize this desire as “wisdom” while continuing to apply it selectively against societies your government has told you to hate.
Every country should be blocking the US surveillance giants, its extremely naive for countries to be letting facebook, twitter, reddit, and google operate unhindered.
There’ no such thing as a “non-authoritarian” state or other myths like the tooth-fairy, but even if they existed, then it’d be hard to argue that letting the US surveillance state operate freely within your borders is somehow “non-authoritarian”. The US is more likely than any other country to use the intelligence they’ve gained learned to harm you physically.
Literally every government with the capability to control information is doing that, and frankly the rise of bleach-injecting covid denialist flat earth tradwife inflluencers has proven China right to do so.
From Merriam-Webster
1 relating to, or favoring blind submission to [authority].
2 relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people
i love that it has the caveat in the second definition abt a constitution. like, no guys, totslly not us, look at this definition we created to show how we arent authoritarian
So like, objectively not China? Because their ruling party consists of 90 million members and they’re constantly debating shit, and enjoy an incredibly high satisfaction rate among non-party members?
consists of 90 million members
It’s been over 100 million since 2024
Would a non-aurhoritarian government be able to institute a one-child policy like China?
Given the vagueness of your definition, yes absolutely.
Yes, of course they could. Individual people make the decision to practice birth control every day, and a vast democratic assembly of millions voted in by their peers can make the decision as well.
104 milliion last I checked.
The working classes use state authority for pro-social policy and to prebent capitalists from gaining political power, as opposed to capitalist authority for pro-profit policy and to prevent the working classes from gaining political power. Authority has a class dynamic, analysis without class erases the core distinction.
“Simping” here meaning “viewing with anything less than total antipathy”
Expecting others to adhere to your cultural and political norms is authoritarianism. Not willing to learn or tolerate differences is bigotry.
What’s an authoritarian?
State > people
So what’s a non-authoritarian state?
A state the exists as a servant to a citizenry that is not limited to class or ethnicity. A state served as a safeguard to the human rights of all humans within its sovereignty.
It also serves as a mechanism to efficiently direct resources to human advancement as basic needs are automated.
I meant like can you give an example of one
Also:
It also serves as a mechanism to efficiently direct resources to human advancement as basic needs are automated.
So like China
Finland
The country that was a Nazi ally and didn’t drop the swastika from their air force insignia until 2025? Finland the country currently implementing mass austerity while giving tax cuts to the rich? That Finland?
Finland? Where despite years of protest by the people, the state continues to buy Israeli weapons and cooperate with the zionist entity in the development of military tech and spyware? The state currently ignoring the wishes of it’s people in order to aid and abet a historically unpopular genocide?
those right wing warmongering Russophobe US bootlickers?
Finland is an imperialist country governed by capitalists.
Jesus, at this point why don’t you just admit that by “non-authoritarian” you just mean “white”.
You just described the PRC, and notably not capitalist dictatorships, whose governments don’t represent their people / working class, but the interests of capitalists only.
You desperately need to get past this poli-sci-intro-level understanding of what states are. States are organizations of force for one class (meaning in Marxism their relationship to production) to oppress another. The USA and other liberal countries are capitalist dictatorship over workers, while the PRC is a worker’s dictatorship over capital.
Here are some resources:
So, China
The people control the state in China, though.
The communist party controls the state, and not everyone is a member.
So then every country is authoritarian, because no country is controlled by a party that every citizen is a member of.
The communist party is a working class party. What exactly do you think the purpose of a party is? And what do you think class is? You seem confused on each.
No just one out of every 14 people, which you may notice is many thousands of times more democratic than any of the western so-called democracies by percentage.
So 13 out of 14 people do not belong to the only political coalition (the 8 parties with 700,000 members total don’t really count as “opposition parties”) that is legally allowed in their country?
In reference to my original post, we agree that authoritarianism is bad and you are arguing the case that China and the CCP is not authoritarian, correct?
They seem to be doing a pretty good job
we agree that authoritarianism is bad
No. We disagree that “authoritarianism” is a meaningful distinction when every government exists by authority. Might as well call it “badguyism”
Because America are the thoughtful, non violent democrats, who represent the people, and never start illegal wars?
This is still happening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
So let’s play a game. The USA is bad, and China is bad. Your turn.
If the US is bad, why do you believe what they say about others?
Because I don’t live in a solipsism that concludes nothing is real?
Your assessment of China is based on state department propaganda
And yours is based on???
Are you saying you don’t believe in the treatment of wighurs
And you believe this is the truth.
The burden of proof is on you. I can only provide context for the claims that have been raised. If you look at the sources they’re all western
You believe in a genocide with literally no single proof
Are you saying you don’t believe in the white genocide going on in south africa right now?
Are you saying you don’t believe that Hamas beheaded 40 babies?
It’s spelled “Uyghurs”, by the way
Nice moym answer
It’s only a non-answer if you have a sub-canine ability to process patterns
“Your argument doesn’t count because I have no response to it!”
Europe also bad?
This is still happening
Yeah? Got any primary sources that aren’t a decade old?
I have not stake in this, but here you go: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-uyghur-uighur-turkey-oppression-rcna97238. I took one at random that was semi-recent and look somewhat relevant.
Just look at the date of the references on Wikipedia and you will find plenty.
Got any primary sources
Fucking hell, I swear you people can’t read
Why is my link not a primary source?
Are you fucking serious right now?
This shit is so tiring.
NBC is pretty shit that almost every hyperlink is to another nbc news but one of those hyperlinks go to Safeguard Defenders and other go to Amnesty International and both direct to a report made by OHCHR which just cite Adrian Zenz and his propaganda made by Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation.
Holy shit is just impossible to find a source that doesn’t have bullshit propaganda. For any lib reading this, if a news source is citing a propaganda piece they are not writing news, they are writing propaganda.
I just took one at random and read the first few lines to make sure it was actually on topic. I have no clue about NBC News credability, I only wanted to illustrate that there were a lot of resources linked in the Wikipedia article, since BrainInABox asked for them.
I asked for a fucking primary source and you instead give me an NBC article you “skimmed the first few lines” of.
My fucking God, you people are beyond parody.
that there were a lot of resources linked in the Wikipedia article.
Yeah and all of them go back to Adrian Zenz.
You talking about a fucking genocide “reading a few lines” is insulting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5j2GcWZEbM
here have an uyghur talking to a propagandized westerner that thinks they know more about their own people.
Thx for that lol. Incredibly satisfying to watch.
They’re not even against capitalism. They only pay lip service to anti-capitalism.
This must go so hard if you know literally fucking nothing about China.
👍
Wrong.
Is China State Capitalist?
- The backbone of the economy is state ownership and socialist planning. 24 / 25 of the top revenue companies are state-owned and planned. 70% of the top 500 companies are State-owned. 1, 2 The largest bank, construction, electricity, and energy companies in the world, are CPC controlled entities, subject to the 5 year plans laid out by the central committee.
- Workplace democracy in action in the CPC.
- Is modern day china communist? Is it staying true to communist values?
- Didn’t China go Capitalist with Deng Xiaoping? Didn’t it liberalize its economy? Is China’s drastic decrease in poverty a result of the increase in free market capitalist policies?
- Is the CPC committed to communism?
- The Long Game and Its Contradictions. Audiobook
- The myth of Chinese state capitalism. Did Deng really betray Chinese socialism?
- Tsinghua University- Is Socialism with Chinese Characteristics real socialism, or is it state Capitalism?
- Isn’t China revisionist for having a capitalist sector of the economy, and working with capitalists? Why isn’t it fully planned like the USSR was?
- Castro on why both China and Vietnam are socialist countries.
- Roderic Day - China has billionaires.
- What is socialism with Chinese characteristics (SWCC)?
- How is SWCC not revisionist? How is it any different from Gorbachev’s market reforms?, 2
- Domenico Losurdo - is China state capitalist?, 2
I’m honestly impressed at the effort you put into this comment. It’ll be a while before I read through all these links, so I’m just gonna save this comment and come back to it occasionally.
About 20% of my passive, after-tax income in retirement comes from Chinese companies.
I own a small slice of private property, in many companies, in China. This morning while I was drinking tea and reading the news, and later when my wife and I went for brunch, and later while we were wandering through local galleries, and now while we’re making dinner, and later while we’re sleeping tonight, we will extract surplus value from Chinese workers to continue to fund our early retirement.
All the links in the world won’t change that.
What not reading anything Deng, Jiang, Hu or Xi wrote will do to a mf. Genuinely amazingly arrogant. Socialism is not Communism and due to living in reality pressing the magic communism button is unfortunately not possible thus we are stuck working through the transitionary period. I wish I had the confidence like you do to be so arrogant on something you know so little about.
Whatever helps you sleep at night brah.
Go back to Reddit
Lol America, land of the free, they literally arrested anyone who said they were a communist and confiscated your gold because they said it was illegal.
Yet China is frowned upon.
Whataboutism.
Flash news, America is authoritarian
These things exist in degrees.
Fuck Donald J Trump. I hope the rat bastard dies shitting himself inside out.
Try talking like that about Xi on Chinese social media.
That was supposed to be criticism?
Liberals believe hating something is critique. That’s why they claim Lemmy.ml bans people for “criticizing” socialist countries, when in reality their “critique” is just saying “fuck xyz.”
Mostly their critique, as you said, is just plain insulting. Often it is not to an ideology or a system, but a person or people. Like the person above just insulted not the US, not capitalism, not western imperialism, but Trump, a single person. What is even the point?
It’s the type of unseriousness that results from not engaging with real political activism, and not engaging with socialist theory.
But which countries are not authoritarian, and why?
Define authoritarian. The PRC spent decades of anti-colonial struggle defeating British imperialists, Japanese imperialists, feudal reactionaries, and then US imperialists. Do you know more than them about how to defeat vicious empires, “non-authoritarianly”?
they should’ve just prayed and cattered to the imperialists like India.
As malcolm x once said “The West doesn’t not have any love for China but it respects it, while they love India but they do not respect it.”
These very same jerks would love China if it was just another uwu Japan/SKorea hosting US troops.
China can have products that are great and cheap. China can also have stolen designs and inhumane labor practices. They’re not mutually exclusive.
