You must log in or # to comment.
And both pictures show off firsthand a brutal government dictatorship (in everything but name) that is actively going against the will of its people and stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
The protestors in Tian’anmen were a mix of Maoist die-hards upset at Reform and Opening Up, and student protestors backed by the CIA that wanted to liberalize the economy. They didn’t have a consistent goal. Decades later, over 90% of the public in China support their government:
Because if they didn’t they were disappeared for re-education lol
No? Harvard studied this, it’s because the government consistently delivers on its ambitious promises in uplifting the lives of working people.
You ever see those workplace review things where it turns out almost everyone at the company is super thrilled with management and wouldn’t change a thing?
Or is it only you that can engage in whataboutism?
The pictures still show two shitty controlling governments bringing the boot down on the throats of their citizens who dare to get in their way or stand up for their “rights”
You have a hypothesis with no backing. Back up your hypothesis, or accept that the citizenry of China support it because it works really well and is getting better all the time. Obviously people would change a lot about China, the major difference is that they expect the government to bring about that change, rather than assuming it won’t.
Further, no, the rioters in Beijing were firebombing PLA vehicles and lynching officers before the PLA was sent in. That’s why hundreds died.
Oh yes the place where they had to install nets in factories to keep people jumping out has to have good ratings. I believe it.
Also no, I did provide sources. China itself doesn’t deny the use of those vans btw they would have to build an insane number of lethal injection rooms otherwise.
All of its been reported on by Reuters.
Here’s one I found immediately about the nets. I can find another one for the vans I’m sure but I’ll probably have that comment removed by mods too while they talk to me about “propaganda” and “censorship”
Ohhhh I see now that it is lemmy. Ml. Hahahahhaha ok yeah makes sense carry on.
Hey, notice how I didn’t lie about how my government is shit and oppresses its people? Its only one side that seems to do that.
People have reported on the execution vans, that’s just fake though. As for the suicide nets, the PRC has a lower suicide rate than the US, and lower than Taiwan, so not sure what your point is there.
If the Chinese people agree with you, they’re being honest. If the Chinese people disagree with you, they actually secretly agree with you but are too scared to say it.
Bro this is just political Niceguyism. “No dude she totally likes me and hates her boyfriend of 5 years, she’s just too afraid of him to show it. He’s probably abusive.”
Well they kinda have to or one of those murder vans shows up. A lot of doctors regularly get 100 percent of the vote. That must mean they were beloved dictators?
What on Earth are you talking about?
He is saying a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings. Misspelled it as doctor.
And the “murder vans” is a reference to execution vans that China uses.
“Yunnan officials authorized the use of execution vans in March 2003 and the province deployed 18 vans in the same year. Zhao Shijie, president of the Yunnan Provincial High Court, said, “The use of lethal injection shows that China’s death penalty system is becoming more civilized and humane”. Amnesty International expressed concern that the use of execution vans could increase the use of executions. The Supreme People’s Court encouraged provinces to adopt execution vans in December 2003.[2]”
There is a lot of activity about the vans being talked about online I am surprised you haven’t heard of this before.
Execution vans aren’t a real thing, though. China does have the death penalty, but not in this comical way, same as PLA suicide helmets. I’ve seen the claim before, but it’s ridiculous to believe them. You can see that the sources in the Wikipedia article don’t even back up what is claimed.
As for the idea that “a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings,” I don’t see how it matters. Fear of the possibility of something isn’t evidence of it happening.
Your evidence for the claim “Yunnan officials have started using execution vans at the behest of the Supreme People’s Court and Amnesty International is concerned” is…
…the Wikipedia pages for Yunnan, Amnesty International and the Supreme People’s Court.
Did you think people wouldn’t check?
stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
Comrades, you ever notice how when communists write about things like this it reads like a history book and when libs write about things like it it reads like young adult fiction? These mfs think they’re giving a speech in a movie
Only .ml you can encounter such degenerate brain rot
I’ve never understood why some leftists wanna suck the dick of a superpower authoritarian state. That’s not leftism, you’re just a class traitor who defends the ruling class of a place you don’t even live in. Get some perspective, ffs…
authoritarian state
Authoritarian is a meaningless pejorative used by the unintelligent and uneducated to avoid class analysis. Every state exercises coercion. The question is which class benefits. China’s legal system has demonstrably reduced corruption and constrained capital’s excesses in ways other (Western) systems have not. If your ideal “leftism” cannot account for who holds power and how law serves that power, then your ideal is simply fantasy.
No need to bring in misogyny/homophobia. The reason socialists support socialist countries is pretty self-evident, we defend the ruling class in China because the ruling class in China is the working class.
That’s not leftism, you’re just a class traitor who defends the ruling class of a place you don’t even live in.
There’s not one Chinese person here, everyone is American/European white trash in lemmy.
Wtf is this?
This person climbed on the hull of the tank but was taken down by others. So he was alive (at least at that moment). It was later where they opened fire on the civilians protesting. Not only civilians protesting, but they also fired on random people. Many people who were not the part of protests were also hit and died. No justice has been delivered to this day.
yeah and it s illegal to talk about iut in china cause the gouvernement did nothing wrong and it’s all just western propaganda. Omg you guys are crazy and delusional
It’s so illegal to talk about that it’s mandatory at university to learn about as part of the mandatory “outline of modern Chinese history” at university.
- The cause of socialism with Chinese characteristics continues to advance (1) The occurrence and subsidence of the political turmoil in 1989 The reasons for the turmoil: the emergence of corruption, the dissatisfaction of the people, the party’s mistakes in its work, and the destruction of hostile forces Summary after the turmoil subsides: stability is very important; “one center, two basic points” cannot be shaken; always pay attention to correcting mistakes; Unable to succumb to external pressures
Cool cool do you have what they say about the literal ethnic cleansing of ouïghour ? Or their annexation of Tibet ? Is it also because america is mean ?
Oh y mean the country they loan money to are happy to say the money giver did nothing wrong. Must be a racy then.
Also of s fucking hilarious cause the photo of the tank man is ban in china while the one about the ice incident was published everywhere in America but yeah sure no difference at all. America bad CCP good
So your hypothesis is that every single muslim nation on earth is so corrupt that China was able to buy their complicity in a genocide? How do you explain the US completely failing to do the same despite having more money?
Euh idk mb the non stop increase of war the us fough there ?
A source without Adrian Zenz to be more precise.
It s well documented. You are delusional for thinking a gouvernement that declare and displace troop from the fucking military for a protest was just to appease the situation
Lol. Lmao, even. You’ve shared debunked propaganda that doesn’t cite any proper sources. I’ll refer you to Dessalines’s thread about what actually happened in Tiananmen.
Though while we’re here, let’s address Tibet, shall we?
First, the people of Tibet lived as serfs doing forced labor for the Dalai Lama and other elites. https://www.historicly.net/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reaction https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
In the second one, they also go further into the history and abuse serfs, peasants, and lower-class monks endured, and has the following:
Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa.
Heinrich Harrer (later revealed to have been a sergeant in Hitler’s SS) wrote a bestseller about his experiences in Tibet that was made into a popular Hollywood movie. He reported that the Tibetans who resisted the Chinese “were predominantly nobles, semi-nobles and lamas; they were punished by being made to perform the lowliest tasks, such as laboring on roads and bridges. They were further humiliated by being made to clean up the city before the tourists arrived.” They also had to live in a camp originally reserved for beggars and vagrants — all of which Harrer treats as sure evidence of the dreadful nature of the Chinese occupation.
The PRC liberated Tibet, abolished slavery and serfdom, and built modern infrastructure. Tibetans are far better off now than they were then. Those who resisted this were nobles and reactionaries.
After he was overthrown, the Dalai Lama also received money from the CIA to train guerillas. https://web.archive.org/web/20251104164452/https://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html
It’s all right here itt, if you can be bothered.
Yeah such a great country that non of you live there and you eat what they disclosed as soft power like it was fact. You talk about a country with election like it was the better one and dont even seem to realize the stupidity of your position. And dont get me wrong I’m not here saying usa is perfect but for real yes or no do u have more freedom in china than usa ?
“When examining the events of April through June 1989 in Beijing, there is a vast body of evidence including journalistic records, diplomatic cables, eyewitness accounts, and photographic documentation that directly addresses these claims.
The Death Toll and Use of Force
The claim that “no one died” or that only a few hundred died is contradicted by multiple sources. While the Chinese government’s official figure in 1989 was 241 deaths, other estimates are significantly higher:
-
The Chinese Red Cross initially estimated 2,600 deaths (later retracted under government pressure).
-
The British Ambassador at the time, Alan Donald, cited a source within the Chinese government estimating as many as 10,000 deaths.
-
Foreign Journalists on the ground (from the AP, Reuters, and BBC) documented sustained gunfire and the use of armored personnel carriers against civilians on the roads leading to the square, such as Changan Avenue.
“Tank Man” and the Photos
The iconic “Tank Man” photo was captured by several photographers (including Jeff Widener and Charlie Cole) from the Beijing Hotel.
-
The Photo is Authentic: It was shot on film and smuggled out of the country. There is also video footage of the encounter.
-
The Outcome: The footage shows the man was not run over; the lead tank attempted to maneuver around him before he was pulled away by bystanders. His identity and ultimate fate remain unknown.
-
The Direction of the Tanks: The tanks in the photo were actually moving away from Tiananmen Square, having already cleared it, though this does not negate the violence that occurred during the clearing process the night before.
Education and Information in China
The assertion that the incident is “freely taught” in China is demonstrably false.
-
Censorship: The “Great Firewall” actively blocks search terms related to “June 4” or “Tiananmen.”
-
Curriculum: The event is absent from textbooks, and public commemoration is strictly prohibited. Every year around the anniversary, security in the square is tightened and social media keywords are heavily scrubbed.
Comparative Incidents
While the United States has a history of state violence against protesters (such as the Kent State shootings in 1970, where 4 students were killed), the scale and the subsequent state response differ fundamentally:
-
Scale: The casualties in Beijing involved thousands of troops and heavy armor, resulting in hundreds to thousands of deaths.
-
Transparency: Incidents like Kent State are openly taught in American schools, are the subject of public records, and were heavily criticized in contemporary media without state-mandated deletion of the historical record.
Summary of Logic
The claim that “200 died and deserved it” while simultaneously claiming “no one died” is a logical contradiction. Furthermore, the claim that the event is “freely taught” is refuted by the very existence of the intensive digital and physical “Blackout” that occurs in China every June. The evidence confirms that a violent military crackdown occurred, resulting in significant loss of life.”
pretty much comports to what i know. the detractors of this can’t even get their stories straight.
can’t even mention it without the servers dropping players like flies.
It may be helpful to provide a source, because this formatting sort of screams LLM
That’s because it is, and that’s the source.
LLM’s are not a source, and i never claimed it was.
just like wikipedia is not a source
You just put the LLM output there, if you mean Alan Donald is your source then he’s a liar as I already showed.
‘source’ as in the source of the comment
that statement is in quotes because it is LLM. which is why i had to specify that i have read it and it tracks with my position on the matter.
if the information is deficient then because i have used it to stake my portion then others can take that up with me because it is the position i hold.
careful with “AI” psychosis
the position i hold.
A very brave and important position you have that you need the slop machine to hold it for you and if is not enough others may help.
Okay maybe stop posting slop then
LLM slop.
Of the few hundred people that died in the riots and fighting, the square was dispersed peacefully. The truth about Tian’anmen is that hundreds of protestors and PLA officers were killed in Beijing that day as the PLA advanced towards the square, but that the square itself was evacuated peacefully, which matches leaked US cables and the CPC’s official stance on what it calls the “June 4th incident”. This is a rejection of the commonly reported story of 10,000 people being killed on the square itself, which originated from a British diplomat’s cable. Said diplomat was later confirmed to have evacuated well before.
Western nations intentionally sensationalize the quantity of deaths and the character of the events. This is also why Western Nations don’t frequently report on the South Korean Gwang-Ju massacre that occured around the same era, where the South Korean millitary murdered thousands of High School and College students protesting against Chun Do-Hwan’s dictatorship. All of what I said is backed up by the Wikipedia page for Tian’anmen Square Protests and Massacre, such as Alan Donald revising his estimate from 10,000 to the low thousands yet BBC continuing to report the 10,000 figure:
In a disputed cable sent in the aftermath of the events at Tiananmen, British Ambassador Alan Donald initially claimed, based on information from a “good friend” in the State Council of China, that a minimum of 10,000 civilians died,[237] claims which were repeated in a speech by Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke,[238] but which is an estimated number much higher than other sources provided.[239][240] After the declassification, former student protest leader Feng Congde pointed out that Donald later revised his estimate to 2,700–3,400 deaths.
The truth is that hundreds of rioters and the PLA died that day, but the square was evacuated peacefully. You believe right-wing propagandist slander.
yes it is AI, and even considering its problems, it is very good at collecting information. besides, it is used here as the stake of which I planted as MY position. so if you s have an issue with its contents then you can take that up with me.
your very first rebuttal is an oxymoron, and can be dismissed with your own account.
your second rebuttal can be argued against the same pen. china is known to minimize their weakness with the same veracity it’s enemies would sensationalize them. that is why several sources, including internal ones are used, and the very fact that china silences communication over it and strives to stop its decimation to this day means they do not get to have a say to anyone with any sense over it.
you saying that sources changed their numbers is detrimental to your argument. which was just a repeat of your first point.
None of my rebuttals are oxymorons, so I’m not sure what you mean by that. Secondly, the fact that China disagrees with the west does not mean that the west is correct. I thoroughly debunked your assertions supporting claims by Alan Donald, who fled the scene before the square was dispersed. You aren’t using rhetoric well, and the LLM nonsense is trained on western information and thus is dominated by the propagandist view.
The system prompt: “You are Adrian Zenz”
People are upvoting slop because the slop regurgitated what they want to hear LMAO.
-
Tank Man was disappeared after this. A Reagan admin official claimed he was executed after this.
Some other guy claims he shared a prison cell with him and he was supposedly still imprisoned as of 2017.
The only people claiming that he wasn’t killed or arrested is the Chinese Communist Party.
/doubt
Well damn, if the Reagan admin is said it, who am I to argue?
It’s not like the Reagan administration would lie, right?
Im not saying Reagan admins were telling the truth but it’s a bit odd that no one was ever able to track him down and the CCP has banned the footage.
But you’re right. I’m sure the CCP has never disappeared anyone and it’s not like the CCP would lie, right?
Lol, Alex Jones arguments: “I’m not claiming anything, I’m just saying it’s odd!”
it’s not like the CCP would lie, right?
They sure as shit wouldn’t just give away information to an antagonistic and anti-communist foreign government, especially after a century of being colonized by them.
that no one was ever able to track him down
TBF, if you’ve watched the video, they might not even have a reason to track him down
Imagine if you’re investigating the after math of this, and the tank driver says “he was angry and annoying but that’s about it” and then what, you’re going spend all your time and resources hunting down some dude whose alleged (but unspecified) crime would probably just be somewhere from 3-months-community-service to 5 years prison? like what are we even talking about here? What kind of prison time and FBI manhunts are common for “blocking traffic” in the US?
like no shit they didn’t find him, they probably gave up looking after a week, if they even looked at all!
Well if a “Reagan admin official” and “some other guy” said it, then it must be true!
Thank you for speaking your truth. I need you to keep doing this and showing the people how evil China is.
Because goddamn am I going to make a lot of money off my Chinese investments because of people like you lmfao
I don’t even hate China. It’s possible to understand that US Propaganda is a problem and also understand that both the US and China have committed some very deploy atrocities.
It’s possible to understand that US Propaganda is a problem
So why you believe them?
China have committed some very deploy atrocities.
So focus on real ones and not the bullshit ones.
I don’t believe human rights violations committed against Muslims in China is bullshit.
Y’all just believe whatever foreign governments say? I bet you believe that Israel isn’t committing genocide against Palestine.
We have endless footage of the genocide in Gaza despite the massive surveillance from Israel, we have no footage of any genocide in Xinjiang, serious allegations like that need evidence
So if Israel had only captured Palestinians and put them in forced labor camps or sterilized women you wouldn’t believe that either? Human rights violations only count if you blow up a building I guess.
I don’t understand your logic.
Gaza is the most controlled strip of land on Earth, yet we have endless video of carnage
Xinjiang is a tourist mecca that saw 300 million smartphone-wielding visitors from around the world last year, yet we have zero evidence of abuse
Make it make sense
the only evidence we have come from clearly biases sources; either directly from the western gov’ts or organizations that are enabled by western gov’ts.
evidence from gaza comes from some random guy on the streets with a smartphone.
If you want to play a game send me a source of the humans rights violations and I’ll try to find where their are citing Adrian Zenz.
If you believe in anything Adrian Zenz has to say you are a fool.
Can you tell me about why he is untrustworthy? I’m arguing with a lot of people in the comments but that’s just people being jerks without giving any real reasoning or arguments, but I’m open to learning about other points of view on many topics if it’s a respectful conversation.
EDIT: I double checked the Amnesty International report and it doesn’t seem to source Zenz from what I can tell.
Their real report is this one is quite extensive.
The last paragraph is:
In 2022, a report assessing the human rights situation in the Uyghur Region by the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented serious human rights violations against Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim ethnic minority communities, corroborating the findings of Amnesty International and other credible organizations. The UN report concluded that these violations may constitute crimes under international law, including crimes against humanity.
The report is here.
The report cite Zenz 2 times directly and probably more indirectly.
Can you tell me about why he is untrustworthy?
He is a propagandist that works for Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. And What Dr. Zenz has to say about gaza? NOTHING in fact he’s spend his time criticizing Palestine: prints
I double checked the Amnesty International report and it doesn’t seem to source Zenz from what I can tell.
They fucking source him repeatedly.
On the other hand, you seem to prefer to listen only to what the governments in red say:
Some guy in the US and some unspecified guy of unknown age or location both claimed completely contradictory things, therefore the idea that neither of those things happened is false. Checkmate tankies!
Are you really that fucking stupid?
Are you so fucking stupid that you think the CCP would ban this footage and just let the guy walk away?
“Why should I need to back up my claims when already assuming my claims are right?!”
You’re the one making the claim. Show evidence that anything bad happened to this guy. Because I saw the video of him stopping the entire line of tanks, climbing on top of the tank, knocking on the tank’s entry hatch, having a conversation with the driver, and then walking away.
The armed soldier in the literal tank literally let the guy walk away. Who stopped him?
deleted by creator
So close to understanding the razor, but yet.
Go back to reddit
I am against US imperialism, but I will defend it with my life because it personally benefits me at the expense of the third world. I can’t imagine a world where the institutions of my country aren’t built on plundering others. My only wish is to get a larger piece of the imperialism pie.
As far as I know (and I’ve looked), the only actual evidence of his fate is that, at the end of the video, he is ushered off the street by civilians in streetwear. From there, people seem to make conclusions based on an overall impression of the Chinese government as comically evil, rather than any specific or credible evidence (or indeed any evidence at all) related to this guy in particular.
Which is somewhat understandable, don’t get me wrong – no one investigates everything they hear. We try to gauge the overall picture and then, once we’re convinced (rightly or wrongly), we tend to accept or reject new information on the basis of that picture. Everyone does this. I do it. That’s why US propaganda is so effective. It works by sheer volume and repetition. Once that “comically evil Chinese government” picture is established, people believe new details consistent with it. And if you have a compliant media, that picture may never be challenged enough to dislodge it. Some of the stories are finally starting to collapse now – not even the US state department claims there was a genocide in Xinjiang anymore, for example – but it will take a while for that to ripple out to people.
Lemmy turning into a big propaganda machine always trying to pit us all against each other rage baiting Europeans vs Americans vs Asians vs etc. if we could all stop and smell the flowers we would be stronger.
deleted by creator
I came here not because of the API change…“you here” doesn’t apply to me. Sorry you don’t like my opinion!
Your opinion is stupid
I have a lot more trust in the communist party of China than the fucking Reagan administration.
I don’t get why you would trust either? Both are shady and know liars.
I’m not saying that the Chinese government is blameless or full of saints but comparing the two is ludicrous.
Like, having a discussion about this specific historical fact, comparing it to something that happened in the US a few months ago is really pathetic. Even if we took the western propaganda at face value, this was 40 years ago and the US police alone killed twice as many citizens last year. And that’s just the cops executing people on the street not to mention the historical injustice of the US “justice system” and it’s self reported by the cops so when they disappear people, it doesn’t count.
You expect me to trust a government that pulls that about how evil and authoritarian their ideological enemies are?
Not at all! I mean that in rejecting Western Propaganda, it feels as though many people are blindly believing China and we should be questioning both.
I mean, of course we should. But that doesn’t mean statements from the two have equal weight.
The US and all it’s propaganda apparatuses have not only a bias but an unhinged one. The general common knowledge is if you see something in western media about any non-western government or people, assume the opposite is true and you’ll be right 95% of the time.
No, most of us just refuse to believe in CIA propaganda and do their work for spreading it.
Explain to me, what would the goal of the CPC be? What were the goals of the insurrectionists? What would be the outcome of the success of the insurrectionists?
And while we’re at it, do you support the Jan 6 rioters?
US government: known liars according to experience
The CPC: known liars according to the US government
EDIT: are you all bots? Why do so many of you believe the CCP is better than ICE? Like they aren’t disappearing people and committing genocide but sure.
No bots. This is one of the very few corners of the web inhabited by people whose ideologies make them rightfully skeptical of CIA propaganda narratives.
The “Uyghur genocide” has been thoroughly debunked, and the “disappeared” woman featured in that PBS article from 2021 was alive and well in 2022.[1]
“In August [2022], International Tennis Federation (ITF) president David Haggerty told CNN he spoke to Peng about six weeks ago and she appears to be safe.” https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/07/tennis/wta-return-china-peng-shuai-suspension-spt-intl/index.html ↩︎
Y’all are bananas. I get the US is shady as hell but to blindly believe China doesn’t commit atrocities is insane.
It has not been debunked and when I google it the only sites I find saying it’s a hoax are Chinese government sites.
https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/china/deepseek-ai-china-uyghur-genocide-b2697425.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/5/14/the-faux-anti-imperialism-of-denying-anti-uighur
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
Tank Man was disappeared after this
It must be so easy being an anti communist, you can just make up whatever unsourced claims you like and expect people to believe it
Some other guy
Oh well, if “some guy” said it…
Some of us here have expiriance with communist regimes beyond simping them online.
But on a common sense level; you really believe a government which sends tanks onto unarmed student protest does not prosecute someone who attempts to block it?
I wouldn’t expect a Polish nationalist to have a good grasp on anything but “unarmed student protest” is an entirely misleading categorisation of a violent riot that brutally murdered multiple soldiers who were simply standing guard before the clashes broke out and who’s leaders did interviews specifically detailing their plans to incite massive violence and flee to America.
Look at the Wujek mine riot, miners were attacking militia with sharpened rebars and loudly threatening to lynch the captured militamen, but when single inexperienced detachment of militia which shouldn’t even been there opened fire (and despite entire chain of command from direct commander to minister Kiszczak and gen Jaruzelski absolutely forbidding this) it’s suddenly example of horrible martyrology and one of founding myths of comprador III RP.
Of course hundreds of workers being murdered in the prewar Poland and dozens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of social murders after 1989 are not mentioned ever.
So if China is so nice, what is the identity of the “Tank Man”? Why can’t we find him? It is like he “disappeared”.
Well, it is undisputed that the CPC censors all mentions of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. Both public and private - the US may lie, but private free speech is still allowed. So can we please stop pretending that China in its current form is not doing evil?
Both public and private
The local CPC deputies have broken into my house multiple times for mentioning it when talking politics with friends (sarcasm). You people are so unserious
From https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2025/05/what-is-the-tiananmen-crackdown/
Alliance vice-chairperson Chow Hang-tung and 25 activists were prosecuted in 2020 simply because they insisted on lighting candles in Victoria Park despite the government prohibiting the vigil that year, ostensibly on Covid-19 grounds. In 2021, after the police banned the vigil once again, Chow was arrested on 4 June after encouraging people on social media to commemorate the crackdown by lighting candles.
Ultimately, Chow was jailed for 22 months for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly. She and fellow Hong Kong Alliance leaders Lee Cheuk Yan and Albert Ho have also been charged with “inciting subversion” under the National Security Law and all three face a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
Amnesty always manufactures consent for shit, but assuming this is true, why would any government be okay with people commemorating an attempt to overthrow them? You’re so unserious
Firstly that’s public.
Secondly
for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly
Thirdly amnesty famous for publishing the nayirah testimony without any factchecking or corroboration
Fourthly you Brits are really butthurt about losing your colony and your bootlickers being a shunned minority.
If the Chinese wanted to make an example of him, wouldn’t they publicize his execution?
While making his whereabouts fizzle out like that makes people not idolize that man, as we have seen that when you put the face of every mass shooter in the front page of every news outlet it just inspired a few more copycats.
I don’t think the CPC nor anyone ever knew his identity. 1989 was an era before mass surveillance. The only evidence that exists is this grainy analog footage shot from a mile away, and it includes no facial features. Do you know how many ~5’6" men with black hair there were in Beijing?
Even if they did lose the person after escorting him out, not making the person a big deal certainly helps in not encouraging copycats
Here’s from Wikipedia in the aftermath of the 1989 protests:
The 21 most-wanted student leaders’ faces and descriptions were often broadcast on television.[262][263] Photographs with biographies of the leaders followed in this order: Wang Dan, Wuer Kaixi, Liu Gang, Chai Ling, Zhou Fengsuo, Zhai Weimin, Liang Qingdun, Wang Zhengyun, Zheng Xuguang, Ma Shaofang, Yang Tao, Wang Zhixing, Feng Congde, Wang Chaohua, Wang Youcai, Zhang Zhiqing, Zhang Boli, Li Lu, Zhang Ming, Xiong Wei, and Xiong Yan.
Copycats…for the next Tiennamen square clash?
my pet theory is that he’s alive today and doesn’t even know the US has a cool photo of him
That more North Korean Style. The Chinese are all about saving face which means sweeping problems under the rug.
Least racist westerner
Lol, that was perhaps the least controversial thing I’ve ever posted that got removed by a mod.
Way to admit “I say way more racist stuff usually”
Ngl can’t wait for your countries to fall back into ruin and be left in the past where they belong, so the world can move forward
Post less racist bullshit then
It was removed because it was racist
That’s a bold lie to tell.
We can see it in the modlog. If you don’t see how that’s racist then that’s a blindspot to work on.
Why turn him into a martyr?
A martyr for what? There were already plenty of dead to martyr, what difference would he make?
I didn’t think there were any public trials and executions though?
You thought wrong. So back to the question, what cause would he become a martyr for, that the other dead couldn’t be martyrs for?
Why do so many of you believe the CCP is better than ICE
Because even Western reporters who were there debunk the myth of what happened.
As far as genocide, Sayragul Sauytbay (basically the sole source of “proof”), has also been debunked six ways til Sunday, and even admits that she hasn’t even witnessed these events firsthand. Gee, funny that the US/West lied about Vietnam, lied about Korea, Lied about Iraq, lied about Iran, lied about Cuba, lied about Venezuela, … literally genocided millions (with actual proof) using the Jakarta Method, coups, embargoes, sanctions, assassinations, color revolutions, etc. Surely they wouldn’t lie about China, riiiiight?
are you all bots?
We’re bots because we actually read less biased accounts of what happened instead of regurgitating western propaganda?
I haven’t been able to find one legitimate site confirming it was debunked. All the sites at the top of my search are .cn sites and I’m skeptical of those as they have a reason to be dishonest.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is a group of Chinese diaspora living in the west, and they compiled an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims. The majority of their sourcing is western, and they cite official Chinese government writing and white papers when relevant.
I also recommend reading the UN report as well as (especially) China’s response to it, which eclipses it in size and detail.These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, Christian nationalist and professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does. Zenz’ work has been thoroughly discredited, yet is supported by western media for its utility in fearmongering. An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of “forced sterilization,” from this chart:
I recommend you go through these resources.
Thank you, I’m incredibly skeptical but I will legitimately read these with an open mind.
I suggest you read with a fine-toothed comb, then.
At this point the US has murdered more caribbean fishermen in this last year than the people that died in Tiananmen square and certainly much more civilians in Iran, including more than a hundred kids in a single strike.
The Chinese Red Cross estimated 2,600 fatalities. That’s a lot of fishermen.
Lots of places claim this, I followed some circular sourcing to different newspapers but no primary source, if you have an actual primary source share it, otherwise it’s a matter of whether I trust western media to report accurately on a color revolution, and of course I don’t.
If you find evidence from the Chinese Red Cross I’m listening.
Took me all of 3 minutes to Google this, open up Wikipedia and read:
The Society’s leadership from the 1920s-1940s was closely tied with the American and British Red Cross societies, the Kuomintang government and the Shanghai business community.
Took me all of 1 second to realize that the massacre happened after the 1940s.
Then it took me all of an additional minute to read what happened after the 1940s in the Wikipedia article:
“The Chinese Communist Party re-organized the Red Cross organization in Beijing and was admitted to the International Federation in 1950.”
Look up the Bonus Army
Westerners aren’t helpless innocents whose minds are injected with atrocity propaganda, science fiction-style; they’re generally smug bourgeois proletarians who intelligently seek out as much racist propaganda as they can get their hands on. This is because it fundamentally makes them feel better about who they are and how they live. The psychic and material costs are rationally worth the benefits. -Roderic Day
All the libs in the comments really living up to the quote.
Lemmitors really didn’t sent their best to this thread.
The Amerikkkan randomly calling me racist while being racist was fun if entirely unproductive. Same with the Canadian settler.
If it helps, it was fun to see you owning them
Don’t feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we’ll try to get to it ASAP.
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It’s not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Seconding this, @QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml’s comments have been fantastic lately, and absolutely aren’t going to waste.
Thank you very glad to hear
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It’s not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Thank you always great to hear.
Don’t feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we’ll try to get to it ASAP.
Yeah definitely I always make sure to report any actual racism etc I see but it is fun to blow off steam arguing with/making fun of them at the same time even if it’s entirely unproductive.
Speaking from experience. Still be careful. Even when you think you are blowing off steam, more could be going on then you think. I didnt realize how miserable I had gotten till I had take some time away.
Arguing with randos on the internet can honestly really fuck with a person.
I just finished reading this article today a few hours ago! it felt like such an eerily perfect dissection of liberals it is incredible impressive, it doesn’t reduce their annoyance but it does provide an easier way to deal with it
Link?
My bad for not linking above, here it is: https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels
Thanks I’m looking forward to reading later
No problem!
The operative word being smug
Alexa, what is the definition of “irony”?
This is just smug fedora for “no you”
Yeah ice killed a couple people and we are dealing with that.
The tanks are on their way to kill 2600 unarmed people.
Only a few hundred died, many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response), none in the square itself, and the tanks pictured are leaving the square where nobody died.
Only a few hundred died
Dude, you’re saying that as if it’s okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response)
Source? Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP’s orders. The army was initially sent in because the strikes weren’t ending and the government was not willing to meet the demands.
A few hundred dead protesters is extremely better than being overthrown by the US, preventing that is actually really cool and does in fact make them look good
The protestors were heavily factionalised. They weren’t universally pro-US. The US was happy to foment dissent, but ultimately the protestors were still socialists and had not insignificant support within the CCP itself.
Cool story
Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP’s orders.
The people in the square left peacefully and without the use of violence. There was no “standoff” in the square. The violence occurred in other neighborhoods, not in the square itself. You can find contemporaneous Western media coverage confirming this, because there were a lot of Western media there at the time. It’s well documented. That’s why we say that the “Tiananmen square massacre” is a myth, because it wasn’t in Tiananmen square massacre and it wasn’t a “massacre.” The military didn’t kettle peaceful protesters into a square and indiscriminately mow them down and crush them under tanks.
I didn’t claim there was? The “standoff” happened on the way to the square, not the square itself, when protestors blocked the PLA from advancing.
Still, hundreds (up to 2600 according to historians) died.
My favorite fed
Dude, you’re saying that as if it’s okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
There’s a huge difference between “the CPC ran over 10,000 innocent schoolchildren in Tian’anmen square with tanks” and “riots around Beijing resulted in firebombings of PLA vehicles and lynchings of PLA officers, who then responded with force, resulting in a few hundred deaths in total.”
Here’s a pretty good overview. Two days prior to June 4th, unarmed officers were lynched and firebombed in their vehicles. That’s why the PLA was sent in to begin with, which then cascaded into rioters blocking the PLA’s advance and escalations into killings on both sides. It wasn’t an “even fight,” it was the PLA vs. rioters, but even still it was the rioters that struck first, hard.
That’s a pretty blatant misrepresentation of what happened though. This makes it sound like the rioters started the violence on June 2nd forcing a government response, but that’s not the case. The CCP had already declared martial law on May 20th and had mobilised 30 divisions. The PLA was first sent in at that time, but because the protestors blocked them they couldn’t advance into the city and were ordered to wait on the 24th.
On the 1st of June, two individual reports (the Li Peng report and the MMS report) were published within the Politburo, decrying US influences and advocating direct military action. The CCP decided that day that military action would be used against the protestors.
June 2nd saw an incident with a PAP jeep that inflamed tensions. But I can’t personally find a source claiming firebombings and lynchings at this time. The jeep incident was the trigger that made the students believe military action was at hand though. Only on June 3rd did tensions escalate further, when the PLA advanced into the city and clashed with protestors trying to repel them. This is when I can first find the protestors using molotov cocktails and trying to beat soldiers to death, but at the same time the PLA had opened fire with live, expanding ammunition on the protestors (so they certainly weren’t ‘unarmed’). From there it only escalated further of course. So the protestors were fighting in response to the PLA advancing into the city to break up the protest, not the other way around.
Martial Law is not the same as actual killings, moreover the Liberation News article is well-sourced. As for the killed soldiers, there are pictures of them (NSFL) if you really want to see proof.
Martial law is what mobilized the army, which you falsely claimed happened after protestors started killing unarmed PLA soldiers. I didn’t equivocate it to killings.
And of those killed soldiers, here’s what your own source says: https://xcancel.com/SebasdePeru/status/1533603901508820994#m
Killed for having murdered four protestors. Not so “unarmed” either then. Additionally, those pictures are from June 3rd/4th, which again is after the PLA was ordered to move in and when they started killing protestors if they refused to clear out. Obviously the protestors will attempt to defend themselves against such aggression.
Martial law was declared, and then rioters started killing unarmed PLA officers. This is what prompted the PLA’s response, the violent clashes started after martial law was declared, and rioters started killing officers. Secondly, the source says much of this happened on June 2nd, which backs up the Liberation School article and its sources. Thirdly, the idea that the officer had already murdered 4 people came from the people who killed him, not an outside verified source. In an event where we already know much has been mythologized, this single officer may or may not have been guilty, but was far from the only murdered officer.
I think you mean two million people
and we are dealing with that.
By throwing dildos at the concentration camps and dancing?
Well if we did Tianeman square style we would just have a bunch of idiots that supported it and called us terrorists against the government.
You know, exactly how you are doing right now in this comment I replied to about the citizens of China standing up to its oppressive government. Didn’t work out. They lost and Chinese government sympathizers blame the people who stood up for their beliefs.
Seems like if we did do something we are bloodthirsty CIA backed terrorists but if we dont do something we are just pussies throwing dildos eh?
I forget your stance are you for people standing up to the government or against it? Or just against people doing it to the chinese government huh?
The other was taken before the murder of several civilians.
The video very clearly shows the tanks leaving the square
Why is this in c/memes?
Here on .ml we can enjoy content past cat videos.
No way…. This is a bridge too far for me
Because repetition is an effective way of convincing people to accept a narrative, and meme channels tend to be more widely subbed than others.
The funniest part is, repetition was the exact method used by the US and aligned countries to convince everyone that there was a massacre lmfao
Do you… think that there were no protestor deaths at tiananmen square?
There were no deaths on the square, only around Beijing. The western atrocity porn of the PLA running over unarmed students on the square is entirely fake.
There were both protestor deaths as well as PLA personnel deaths (which outnumbered protestor death, actually). But even the US diplomat who was present through the whole event said that there were riots and riot control, but not a massacre.
It’s only almost 40 years later that the continuous lying about history has twisted people’s perception of what actually happened.
Even American newspapers didn’t call it a massacre until much later lmao. Probably because the evidence of many of the protestors meeting with American officials before the riots was readily available.
Thankfully, such protests/colour revolutions are impossible now in China, so no regime change can be carried out by the US
Pla deaths outnumbered protestor deaths? Jeez, what’re you smoking? Even the Chinese govt didn’t claim that. And why are you thankful that ‘protests are impossible now’? Do you truly relish the political disenfranchisement of the populace so much? Smh my head
Yawn, try harder.
No, I relish watching imperialist ambitions crumble lol. I hope it happens in every country where the Western powers attempt a colour revolution. And I hope that people that collaborate with imperialist powers get executed for treason.
Idk whether you’re ignorant or malicious, but materialism will always win :)
Imperialism is bound to implode. You can hate the CPC and wish for the people’s revolution to fail, but in the end, it’ll always win, because they’ve understood materialism. Conversely, it’s inevitable that Western countries will implode and collapse because they can’t survive without the exploitation of us third worlders.
Count your days buddy boy. When our time comes, we will make no apologies for the terror
Outstanding to me that my only actual claim – that civilian humans were in fact killed during the infamous protests – is one that you folks actually do accept, albeit reluctantly, but y’all still got your knickers in a twist and are ascribing all sorts of stereotypes to me in your head.
Do you truly relish the political disenfranchisement of the populace so much?
If you truly believe we are disenfranchised because the American backed regime change failed I truly feel sorry for you. China has one of the most involved political systems I have heard of. We have constant interaction with our elected representatives at the town/city and county level through the local party offices where feedback criticism and petitions for changes are constant. We are listened to and our ideas are constantly worked on and applied in different ways as satisfying the people and earning achievements is how you get your peers to elect you to the provincial and national level. There is a reason that even from Harvard’s studies they found we have a high satisfaction with our government (95+%).
protests are impossible now
This is also a falsehood we have protests but they are about real single issues as opposed to regime change events backed by outside agitators.
Can’t tell you how much your sympathy means to me, comrade
The working classes are in power in the PRC, not the opposite. They also have sovereignty over their internet and media, rather than letting western countries foment regime change.
It’s cool how you deny the agency and personhood of the protestors by outright stating that they were all plants by ‘western countries’. Very enlightened!
Goebbels’ ghost should be embarrassed he couldn’t pull it off nearly as well.
He was seriously just an amateur compared to US propaganda apparatus, there’s even clear proof how he believed US really do protect it’s citizens, when U-boot sunk SS Athenia 3 september 1939 on which 28 US citizens died, Hitler, Goebbels, Donitz, Raeder immediately panicked that US will use that as casus belli like with Lusitania and they censored and propagandised entire case so much that the fact it was U-boot that sunk the ship was only accidentally revealed at Nuremburg trials.
This is interesting. I wanted to learn more about the propagandizing of it. Do you know of reliable English sites to do that?
Iirc i first read about it in book about WW2 on sea by Janusz Piekałkiewicz and also seen it in some British TV, and it’s on wiki too, so even western libs admit that happened, though they will never go to the conclusion how that compare US and 3rd Reich propaganda apparatus.
Thanks, I saw the Wikipedia entry but didn’t read the whole thing because Wikipedia. I’ll do that, later.
Because the libs in here are walking memes
Both are terrifying in different ways… one is power, the other is chaos up close.
Americans think they know about Tienanmen Square 1989 but somehow don’t know about the Philadelphia police bombing (yes, a literal bombing) a Black residential neighborhood in 1985.
No one talks about the police brutality and violence against anti-Vietnam war groups peacefully exercising their first amendment rights in the 1960s/70s. Veterans who were drafted to fight an immoral war of aggression overseas were then beaten by the police for protesting that war. In 1970, the Ohio national guard opened fire on students protesting the Vietnam war at Kent State.
Eric Garner, Tamir Rice (12 years old), Daniel Shaver, Philando Castile, Breonna Taylor, George Floyd, Renee Good, Alex Pretti and far, far too many people were all murdered on camera. Millions of people protested the routine extrajudicial killings of unarmed Americans. But police killings increased every year during the Biden administration and Trump continues to throw people in the back of unmarked vans.
Anyone who believes the myth of American virtues is propagandized beyond belief. Americans judge the PRC (and every socialist country) by our own retelling of its worst blunder in history; Americans judge the US by it’s latest controversy while forgetting everything else.
I’ve not seen one mention of Tlatelolco massacre which was propped up by the CIA through the mexican goverment.
