I gotta admit I chuckled a bit when I saw where this was posted…
Why?
I guess the downvotes know exactly why ^^
Well let’s say tanks are pictured…
There are 457 upvotes.and 93 downvotes at the time of writing. Tanks being pictured isn’t ironic at all, considering this meme is pro-China and anti-US.
Well it’s tankies vs nazis, both authoritarian. I don’t think there’s good guys pictured… Yet the side that drives war tanks are hinted to be good guys… And well we are on lemmy.ml
Liberalism, famously not “authoritarian” despite sending riot cops to beat down schoolkids for being against Palestinian genocide
You really think those are “liberalists”?!
Why do you guys have such a black/white view of the world? There’s more room than just authoritarians, and authoritarianism and liberalism are somewhat antagonists anyways.
Lol. “Why are you so black and white? Don’t you know that there’s liberalism(the good guys) and everyone else is authoritarian(bad guys)!”
I mean on the other hand Marx was anarchist (though with the exception to have authoritarianism as means to change the system, which I don’t agree with, because it’s also unrealistic to assume that people in charge just throw away their power).
I think having Authoritarianism no matter how, just gravitates towards people that should definitely be not in charge. We see this everywhere. Power corrupts and dehumanizes.
Marx was the polar opposite of an anarchist in many ways. Marx supported collectivization into one unified system, anarchists support communalization into countless decentrally linked systems. Marx supported dialectical and historical materialism, anarchists often fall into idealist and subjectivist trappings. Marx developed scientific socialism, while anarchism is largely utopian. Anarchists can be good comrades, but Marx was not an anarchist.
Power is not a supernatural corrupting force, this too is an idealist argument.
It’s good for workers to have state authority, rather than capitalists. Both have authority, but communists use it to uplift the people and defeat the Nazis.
Fucking lol
Any american will tell you our government is trash and oppressive. And yet when we point out that so is Chinas government you get pure unadulterated propaganda like this shit. And then call us brainwashed.
Lol
Remind me again about how installing suicide nets and making workers sign waivers saying if they kill themselves it isn’t the factories fault is “workers having state authority”
I bet I’ll just get banned though huh. A lot easier than actually using facts.
“My government is trash and oppressive yet I believe everything they say about the PRC”
Go back to reddit
China has a lower suicide rate than Switzerland, the UK, the US, Taiwan, etc. Suicide nets exist, but suicide isn’t nearly as widespread as you make it out to be.
I have yet to see an authoritarian “state” that I consider communist (and that just doesn’t give it a bad name and fuel for western propaganda) that “uplifts the people” (and doesn’t repress them)…
It’s true though, that it’s probably better than capitalistic states (mostly, because all the systems we have are a mixture of all kinds of ideologies), I think China as example certainly does a better job than the USA at this point (various metrics, like addiction, mental/physical health etc. backs this as well).
Non the less, communism in its core is anti-authoritarism.
There have been many socialist states, both past and present. Examples include the PRC, Cuba, Vietnam, DPRK, Laos, and the former USSR. In all of these countries, life expectancy, literacy rates, economic democratization, and more have skyrocketed. Life expectancies in the USSR and PRC doubled. Using only the USSR as an example, as it’s the classic one pointed to as “authoritarian,” it’s clear that analyzing the facts at hand points to tremendous success.
The USSR had steady and consistent economic growth, and provided free, high quality education and healthcare, full employment, cheap or free housing, and fantastic infrastructure and city planning that still lasts to this day despite capitalism neglecting it. This rapid development resulted in dramatic democratization of society, reduced disparity, doubling of life expectancy, tripling of functional literacy rates to 99.9%, and much more. Living in the 1930s famine would not have been good, but it was the last major famine outside of wartime because the soviets ended famine in their countries.
Literacy rates, societal guarantees in the 1936 constitution, reports on the healthcare system over time, and more are good sources for these claims.
The USSR brought dramatic democratization to society. First-hand accounts from Statesian journalist Anna Louise Strong in her book This Soviet World describe soviet elections and factory councils in action. Statesian Pat Sloan even wrote Soviet Democracy to describe in detail the system the soviets had built for curious Statesians to read about, and today we have Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance to reference.
When it comes to social progressivism, the soviet union was among the best out of their peers, so instead we must look at who was actually repressed outside of the norm. In the USSR, it was the capitalist class, the kulaks, the fascists who were repressed. This is out of necessity for any socialist state. When it comes to working class freedoms, however, the soviet union represented a dramatic expansion. Soviet progressivism was documented quite well in Albert Syzmanski’s Human Rights in the Soviet Union.
The truth, when judged based on historical evidence and contextualization, is that socialism was the best thing to happen to Russia in the last few centuries, and its absence has been devastating.
Death rates spiked:
And wealth disparity skyrocketed alongside the newly impoverished majority:
Capitalism brought with it skyrocketing poverty rates, drug abuse, prostitution, homelessness, crime rates, and lowered life expectancy. An estimated 7 million people died due to the dissolution of socialism and reintroduction of capitalism, and the large majority of post-soviet citizens regret its fall. A return to socialism is the only path forward for the post-soviet countries.
When you look at the US Empire and western Europe as having higher quality of life than the USSR, you are looking at the benefits of imperialism, colonialism, and neocolonialism and wishing the USSR also practiced this, instead of helping liberate colonies and the global south. Russia in particular was a semi-feudal backwater in 1917, and made it to space 5 decades later. The USSR was not the picture of wealth, but was for its time the picture of development and rapid progress.
It isn’t the socialist countries giving western countries ammo for propaganda, it’s just western propagandists twisting them. Communism is pro-worker authority, not against authority in general, as it’s through worker-authority that class and the state can be abolished down the line alone.
Oh no, how do I tell the millions of Chinese communists that you, the main character of life who clearly hasn’t read enough Marx, don’t consider them to be communist
Hell yeah dude, you’re 12
Ah you’re also not missing in the party. Nah I’m not, I’m just realistic…
Go back to reddit
Right, and one was taken before the murder of THOUSANDS of civilians. Those tanks and trucks full of soldiers opened fire on the crowds of students.
Both are terrifying in different ways… one is power, the other is chaos up close.
The way a lot of Lemmy users try to whitewash the CCPs past atrocities is really embarrassing.
Lol bold af to post this on ml.
To be clear this was also before the whole Uyghur thing!
I’m curious what do you think the ‘Uyghur thing’ is.
Remember who didn’t stop for you
Cop car was stopped. People started jumping onto the car or getting in front of it, and even on top of the hood. Blocking its way.
Cop car tried to move a bit a couple of times, and people would not get out of the way. That headline is of course leaving context out.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/embed/xzx1OAVFCm0?t=10
Honeslty, what do people realistically think it would happen if you jumped in front of a car? And then start attacking the car. Do you expect for the drivers to just wait until they start breaking windows? I am not American, and for the life of me, I do not understand the lack of logic here and watching the video VS the headline is like two different stories are being told all based on political bias.
surprised pikachu.JPEG
Literally what tankman did to a tank and still he walked away. Imagine attacking an evil seeseepee tank that is monitoring every citizen individually in case they insult putin or whatever, climbing on top of it and everything and you just, walk away after??
It’s okay for the bad person to do the bad thing because what are you stupid? If you’re a victim it’s your fault! You can’t just ignore all the context. You’re supposed to ignore all the context EXCEPT the part where they weren’t nice to the bad person!
Oddly this isn’t what officers mean when they say ‘weaponizing a vehicle’.
Tank Man was disappeared after this. A Reagan admin official claimed he was executed after this.
Some other guy claims he shared a prison cell with him and he was supposedly still imprisoned as of 2017.
The only people claiming that he wasn’t killed or arrested is the Chinese Communist Party.
/doubt
Lemmy turning into a big propaganda machine always trying to pit us all against each other rage baiting Europeans vs Americans vs Asians vs etc. if we could all stop and smell the flowers we would be stronger.
lemmy was primarily a marxist space before reddit’s API update drove a bunch of you here. there’s no grand conspiracy or big plot to divide people on our part; we’re just talking about what we always have while liberals from reddit try to fling shit.
I came here not because of the API change…“you here” doesn’t apply to me. Sorry you don’t like my opinion!
Your opinion is stupid
Why do so many of you believe the CCP is better than ICE
Because even Western reporters who were there debunk the myth of what happened.
As far as genocide, Sayragul Sauytbay (basically the sole source of “proof”), has also been debunked six ways til Sunday, and even admits that she hasn’t even witnessed these events firsthand. Gee, funny that the US/West lied about Vietnam, lied about Korea, Lied about Iraq, lied about Iran, lied about Cuba, lied about Venezuela, … literally genocided millions (with actual proof) using the Jakarta Method, coups, embargoes, sanctions, assassinations, color revolutions, etc. Surely they wouldn’t lie about China, riiiiight?
are you all bots?
We’re bots because we actually read less biased accounts of what happened instead of regurgitating western propaganda?
I haven’t been able to find one legitimate site confirming it was debunked. All the sites at the top of my search are .cn sites and I’m skeptical of those as they have a reason to be dishonest.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is a group of Chinese diaspora living in the west, and they compiled an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims. The majority of their sourcing is western, and they cite official Chinese government writing and white papers when relevant.
I also recommend reading the UN report as well as (especially) China’s response to it, which eclipses it in size and detail.These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, Christian nationalist and professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does. Zenz’ work has been thoroughly discredited, yet is supported by western media for its utility in fearmongering. An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of “forced sterilization,” from this chart:
I recommend you go through these resources.
Thank you, I’m incredibly skeptical but I will legitimately read these with an open mind.
I suggest you read with a fine-toothed comb, then.
At this point the US has murdered more caribbean fishermen in this last year than the people that died in Tiananmen square and certainly much more civilians in Iran, including more than a hundred kids in a single strike.
The Chinese Red Cross estimated 2,600 fatalities. That’s a lot of fishermen.
Lots of places claim this, I followed some circular sourcing to different newspapers but no primary source, if you have an actual primary source share it, otherwise it’s a matter of whether I trust western media to report accurately on a color revolution, and of course I don’t.
If you find evidence from the Chinese Red Cross I’m listening.
Took me all of 3 minutes to Google this, open up Wikipedia and read:
The Society’s leadership from the 1920s-1940s was closely tied with the American and British Red Cross societies, the Kuomintang government and the Shanghai business community.
Took me all of 1 second to realize that the massacre happened after the 1940s.
Then it took me all of an additional minute to read what happened after the 1940s in the Wikipedia article:
“The Chinese Communist Party re-organized the Red Cross organization in Beijing and was admitted to the International Federation in 1950.”
Well damn, if the Reagan admin is said it, who am I to argue?
It’s not like the Reagan administration would lie, right?
Im not saying Reagan admins were telling the truth but it’s a bit odd that no one was ever able to track him down and the CCP has banned the footage.
But you’re right. I’m sure the CCP has never disappeared anyone and it’s not like the CCP would lie, right?
Lol, Alex Jones arguments: “I’m not claiming anything, I’m just saying it’s odd!”
that no one was ever able to track him down
TBF, if you’ve watched the video, they might not even have a reason to track him down
Imagine if you’re investigating the after math of this, and the tank driver says “he was angry and annoying but that’s about it” and then what, you’re going spend all your time and resources hunting down some dude whose alleged (but unspecified) crime would probably just be somewhere from 3-months-community-service to 5 years prison? like what are we even talking about here? What kind of prison time and FBI manhunts are common for “blocking traffic” in the US?
like no shit they didn’t find him, they probably gave up looking after a week, if they even looked at all!
it’s not like the CCP would lie, right?
They sure as shit wouldn’t just give away information to an antagonistic and anti-communist foreign government, especially after a century of being colonized by them.
Well if a “Reagan admin official” and “some other guy” said it, then it must be true!
If the Chinese wanted to make an example of him, wouldn’t they publicize his execution?
That more North Korean Style. The Chinese are all about saving face which means sweeping problems under the rug.
Least racist westerner
Lol, that was perhaps the least controversial thing I’ve ever posted that got removed by a mod.
Post less racist bullshit then
Way to admit “I say way more racist stuff usually”
Ngl can’t wait for your countries to fall back into ruin and be left in the past where they belong, so the world can move forward
It was removed because it was racist
That’s a bold lie to tell.
We can see it in the modlog. If you don’t see how that’s racist then that’s a blindspot to work on.
While making his whereabouts fizzle out like that makes people not idolize that man, as we have seen that when you put the face of every mass shooter in the front page of every news outlet it just inspired a few more copycats.
I don’t think the CPC nor anyone ever knew his identity. 1989 was an era before mass surveillance. The only evidence that exists is this grainy analog footage shot from a mile away, and it includes no facial features. Do you know how many ~5’6" men with black hair there were in Beijing?
Even if they did lose the person after escorting him out, not making the person a big deal certainly helps in not encouraging copycats
Copycats…for the next Tiennamen square clash?
Here’s from Wikipedia in the aftermath of the 1989 protests:
The 21 most-wanted student leaders’ faces and descriptions were often broadcast on television.[262][263] Photographs with biographies of the leaders followed in this order: Wang Dan, Wuer Kaixi, Liu Gang, Chai Ling, Zhou Fengsuo, Zhai Weimin, Liang Qingdun, Wang Zhengyun, Zheng Xuguang, Ma Shaofang, Yang Tao, Wang Zhixing, Feng Congde, Wang Chaohua, Wang Youcai, Zhang Zhiqing, Zhang Boli, Li Lu, Zhang Ming, Xiong Wei, and Xiong Yan.
my pet theory is that he’s alive today and doesn’t even know the US has a cool photo of him
Why turn him into a martyr?
A martyr for what? There were already plenty of dead to martyr, what difference would he make?
I didn’t think there were any public trials and executions though?
You thought wrong. So back to the question, what cause would he become a martyr for, that the other dead couldn’t be martyrs for?
offering two contradictory statements isn’t proof of anything
So close to understanding the razor, but yet.
Go back to reddit
I am against US imperialism, but I will defend it with my life because it personally benefits me at the expense of the third world. I can’t imagine a world where the institutions of my country aren’t built on plundering others. My only wish is to get a larger piece of the imperialism pie.
Some guy in the US and some unspecified guy of unknown age or location both claimed completely contradictory things, therefore the idea that neither of those things happened is false. Checkmate tankies!
Are you really that fucking stupid?
Are you so fucking stupid that you think the CCP would ban this footage and just let the guy walk away?
“Why should I need to back up my claims when already assuming my claims are right?!”
You’re the one making the claim. Show evidence that anything bad happened to this guy. Because I saw the video of him stopping the entire line of tanks, climbing on top of the tank, knocking on the tank’s entry hatch, having a conversation with the driver, and then walking away.
The armed soldier in the literal tank literally let the guy walk away. Who stopped him?
As far as I know (and I’ve looked), the only actual evidence of his fate is that, at the end of the video, he is ushered off the street by civilians in streetwear. From there, people seem to make conclusions based on an overall impression of the Chinese government as comically evil, rather than any specific or credible evidence (or indeed any evidence at all) related to this guy in particular.
Which is somewhat understandable, don’t get me wrong – no one investigates everything they hear. We try to gauge the overall picture and then, once we’re convinced (rightly or wrongly), we tend to accept or reject new information on the basis of that picture. Everyone does this. I do it. That’s why US propaganda is so effective. It works by sheer volume and repetition. Once that “comically evil Chinese government” picture is established, people believe new details consistent with it. And if you have a compliant media, that picture may never be challenged enough to dislodge it. Some of the stories are finally starting to collapse now – not even the US state department claims there was a genocide in Xinjiang anymore, for example – but it will take a while for that to ripple out to people.
Tank Man was disappeared after this
It must be so easy being an anti communist, you can just make up whatever unsourced claims you like and expect people to believe it
Some other guy
Oh well, if “some guy” said it…
Some of us here have expiriance with communist regimes beyond simping them online.
But on a common sense level; you really believe a government which sends tanks onto unarmed student protest does not prosecute someone who attempts to block it?
I wouldn’t expect a Polish nationalist to have a good grasp on anything but “unarmed student protest” is an entirely misleading categorisation of a violent riot that brutally murdered multiple soldiers who were simply standing guard before the clashes broke out and who’s leaders did interviews specifically detailing their plans to incite massive violence and flee to America.
Look at the Wujek mine riot, miners were attacking militia with sharpened rebars and loudly threatening to lynch the captured militamen, but when single inexperienced detachment of militia which shouldn’t even been there opened fire (and despite entire chain of command from direct commander to minister Kiszczak and gen Jaruzelski absolutely forbidding this) it’s suddenly example of horrible martyrology and one of founding myths of comprador III RP.
Of course hundreds of workers being murdered in the prewar Poland and dozens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of social murders after 1989 are not mentioned ever.
So if China is so nice, what is the identity of the “Tank Man”? Why can’t we find him? It is like he “disappeared”.
Well, it is undisputed that the CPC censors all mentions of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. Both public and private - the US may lie, but private free speech is still allowed. So can we please stop pretending that China in its current form is not doing evil?
Both public and private
The local CPC deputies have broken into my house multiple times for mentioning it when talking politics with friends (sarcasm). You people are so unserious
From https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2025/05/what-is-the-tiananmen-crackdown/
Alliance vice-chairperson Chow Hang-tung and 25 activists were prosecuted in 2020 simply because they insisted on lighting candles in Victoria Park despite the government prohibiting the vigil that year, ostensibly on Covid-19 grounds. In 2021, after the police banned the vigil once again, Chow was arrested on 4 June after encouraging people on social media to commemorate the crackdown by lighting candles.
Ultimately, Chow was jailed for 22 months for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly. She and fellow Hong Kong Alliance leaders Lee Cheuk Yan and Albert Ho have also been charged with “inciting subversion” under the National Security Law and all three face a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
Amnesty always manufactures consent for shit, but assuming this is true, why would any government be okay with people commemorating an attempt to overthrow them? You’re so unserious
Firstly that’s public.
Secondly
for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly
Thirdly amnesty famous for publishing the nayirah testimony without any factchecking or corroboration
Fourthly you Brits are really butthurt about losing your colony and your bootlickers being a shunned minority.
EDIT: are you all bots? Why do so many of you believe the CCP is better than ICE? Like they aren’t disappearing people and committing genocide but sure.
No bots. This is one of the very few corners of the web inhabited by people whose ideologies make them rightfully skeptical of CIA propaganda narratives.
The “Uyghur genocide” has been thoroughly debunked, and the “disappeared” woman featured in that PBS article from 2021 was alive and well in 2022.[1]
“In August [2022], International Tennis Federation (ITF) president David Haggerty told CNN he spoke to Peng about six weeks ago and she appears to be safe.” https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/07/tennis/wta-return-china-peng-shuai-suspension-spt-intl/index.html ↩︎
Y’all are bananas. I get the US is shady as hell but to blindly believe China doesn’t commit atrocities is insane.
It has not been debunked and when I google it the only sites I find saying it’s a hoax are Chinese government sites.
https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/china/deepseek-ai-china-uyghur-genocide-b2697425.html
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/5/14/the-faux-anti-imperialism-of-denying-anti-uighur
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounders/china-xinjiang-uyghurs-muslims-repression-genocide-human-rights
I have a lot more trust in the communist party of China than the fucking Reagan administration.
I don’t get why you would trust either? Both are shady and know liars.
I’m not saying that the Chinese government is blameless or full of saints but comparing the two is ludicrous.
Like, having a discussion about this specific historical fact, comparing it to something that happened in the US a few months ago is really pathetic. Even if we took the western propaganda at face value, this was 40 years ago and the US police alone killed twice as many citizens last year. And that’s just the cops executing people on the street not to mention the historical injustice of the US “justice system” and it’s self reported by the cops so when they disappear people, it doesn’t count.
You expect me to trust a government that pulls that about how evil and authoritarian their ideological enemies are?
Not at all! I mean that in rejecting Western Propaganda, it feels as though many people are blindly believing China and we should be questioning both.
No, most of us just refuse to believe in CIA propaganda and do their work for spreading it.
Explain to me, what would the goal of the CPC be? What were the goals of the insurrectionists? What would be the outcome of the success of the insurrectionists?
And while we’re at it, do you support the Jan 6 rioters?
I mean, of course we should. But that doesn’t mean statements from the two have equal weight.
The US and all it’s propaganda apparatuses have not only a bias but an unhinged one. The general common knowledge is if you see something in western media about any non-western government or people, assume the opposite is true and you’ll be right 95% of the time.
US government: known liars according to experience
The CPC: known liars according to the US government
Thank you for speaking your truth. I need you to keep doing this and showing the people how evil China is.
Because goddamn am I going to make a lot of money off my Chinese investments because of people like you lmfao
I don’t even hate China. It’s possible to understand that US Propaganda is a problem and also understand that both the US and China have committed some very deploy atrocities.
It’s possible to understand that US Propaganda is a problem
So why you believe them?
China have committed some very deploy atrocities.
So focus on real ones and not the bullshit ones.
I don’t believe human rights violations committed against Muslims in China is bullshit.
Y’all just believe whatever foreign governments say? I bet you believe that Israel isn’t committing genocide against Palestine.
We have endless footage of the genocide in Gaza despite the massive surveillance from Israel, we have no footage of any genocide in Xinjiang, serious allegations like that need evidence
So if Israel had only captured Palestinians and put them in forced labor camps or sterilized women you wouldn’t believe that either? Human rights violations only count if you blow up a building I guess.
I don’t understand your logic.
Gaza is the most controlled strip of land on Earth, yet we have endless video of carnage
Xinjiang is a tourist mecca that saw 300 million smartphone-wielding visitors from around the world last year, yet we have zero evidence of abuse
Make it make sense
the only evidence we have come from clearly biases sources; either directly from the western gov’ts or organizations that are enabled by western gov’ts.
evidence from gaza comes from some random guy on the streets with a smartphone.
If you want to play a game send me a source of the humans rights violations and I’ll try to find where their are citing Adrian Zenz.
If you believe in anything Adrian Zenz has to say you are a fool.
Can you tell me about why he is untrustworthy? I’m arguing with a lot of people in the comments but that’s just people being jerks without giving any real reasoning or arguments, but I’m open to learning about other points of view on many topics if it’s a respectful conversation.
EDIT: I double checked the Amnesty International report and it doesn’t seem to source Zenz from what I can tell.
Their real report is this one is quite extensive.
The last paragraph is:
In 2022, a report assessing the human rights situation in the Uyghur Region by the UN Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) documented serious human rights violations against Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim ethnic minority communities, corroborating the findings of Amnesty International and other credible organizations. The UN report concluded that these violations may constitute crimes under international law, including crimes against humanity.
The report is here.
The report cite Zenz 2 times directly and probably more indirectly.
Can you tell me about why he is untrustworthy?
He is a propagandist that works for Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. And What Dr. Zenz has to say about gaza? NOTHING in fact he’s spend his time criticizing Palestine: prints
I double checked the Amnesty International report and it doesn’t seem to source Zenz from what I can tell.
They fucking source him repeatedly.
On the other hand, you seem to prefer to listen only to what the governments in red say:
Look up the Bonus Army
The pro-china cucks are so funny lol. So far in the thread I saw:
- Yeah people died, but after 20 years of absolute police state, now polls show 90% approval!
- Yeah but America is also a police state so it’s fine for China to be a police state, checkmate
- Only a few hundred people died, not thousands. And some people may have been armed! So it’s fine to kill scores of people.
- The tanks were driving away and didn’t kill anyone this time
Like, just accept the country is a totalitarian police state and killing scores of people was an atrocity. Then talk about how:
- 17 of the top 20 research institutions are in China, and they’re responsible for more technological breakthroughs than any other country.
- China uplifted more human beings from poverty in a single generation than any nation has, ever
- China is basically our only hope for saving the human race from the impending climate apocalypse through its conversion to clean energy
- (At least until 2027 when they invade Taiwan) China doesn’t bomb and genocide other countries, despite a vastly more powerful military as compared to its neighbors
There’s lots to appreciate. But this sure as fuck ain’t it. You make yourselves look like retards trying to paper this over.
Only a few hundred people died, not thousands. And some people may have been armed! So it’s fine to kill scores of people.
“Some people” aka insurrectionists were not maybe armed.
These insurrectionists bombed and killed soldiers.Do you really think that if the Jan 6th tried to stay at the Capitol and would try to prevent the army from entering and also shooting at them that it would not have turned into a bloodbath?
This is just the other bullet points again! I’m sure if more armed rebels entered the capital it would have been incredibly messy and people would have died. And killing a ton of people, regardless of why, is a failure of government. Conflating one violent protest with another and then saying “America Bad so China Fine” is inane.
What were these other soldiers supposed to do that are trained to fight and protect their country? Just stand there and take some more? What is the proper response according to you when a group of terrorists bombs a military convoy?
You edited your post so I’ll reply again: The test, which America and China both repeatedly fail, is having professional law enforcement and soldiers kill their own citizens. This is one of the most utter, final failures of government. There are plenty of options besides killing people, and when you take up arms and swear oaths to protect your country, and then kill citizens of your own country, you break your oath.
Your argument fails because there’s no need to actually intercede and halt protests. In the case of the pro-democracy movement crushed by the PLA in June 1989, martial law and attacks on protesters had begun en masse 2 weeks before the massacre. There was a steady escalation of violence leading up to the riots in early june. So the idea that the protestors “struck first” (even if that is a justification, which it isn’t, is false. The facts, which aren’t in dispute, were that the anti-corruption policies implemented to answer the complaints of the protestors were well-received, and further reforms were desired by everyone, not just the student protestors. Everyone except the local officials who were at risk of losing their positions by a government overhaul from authoritarianism to democracy.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
- Through wiretaps and arrests
- Through planted dissenters sowing chaos in the student’s ranks
- Through rubber bullets + tear gas, and other nonlethal methods
Instead, even though 300,000 people were protesting that period, the actions of an interim commander who acted on poor discipline and leadership, directly lead to at least hundreds, and possibly thousands, of his own people, in a small section of the city. That is a spectacular failure, and the end of a certain degree of human autonomy in China.
This is coming from someone who actually thinks China is leading the world in many ways. I do genuinely believe that China is actually less corrupt than many other nations, and the high degree of social cohesion in-country is something that gives them strength. Like I said in my first post: lots to admire, but this ain’t it.
The protest could have continued to be disrupted the way they already were before the massacre:
Through wiretaps and arrests Through planted dissenters sowing chaos in the student’s ranks Through rubber bullets + tear gas, and other nonlethal methods
A) There was no “massacre”
B) We have no idea if these tactics weren’t also used, and
C) Let’s be honest, if they had done these things and it had worked, you people would never shut the fuck up about that either.
Yes dude this is what is so fucking wild to me these idiots pick shit you can easily and verifiably fucking check and see is complete bullshit.
The us does it too, for sure but I’m quick to call that shit out when I see it so why the fuck am I wrong for calling another governments fucked up shit? The ruling class fucking sucks in all the major superpowers of the world - facts are facts. China, USA, Russia all those governments are brutal as fuck in different ways.
However, the shit about China saving the world is for sure dude and that is something I wish would be pushed more because the USA is hellbent on burning the last piece of coal until the very last day of humanity’s existence. They even called the meeting about ending fossil fuels “dangerous” like what the fuck.
The Chinese government is still paying their scientists to fucking_do something about it_ and figure something out at least. They are trying and I respect that. That is for all of humanity. And I agree it would probably gain a lot more support if points like that were focused on more, because those are true.
Do you support the Jan 6 insurgency, yes or no?
I bet this logic trap goes hard if you’re a fucking moron. To spring it: No, I don’t support Jan 6 insurgents.
I am against any lethal action by governments towards their own citizens. And I don’t support murder or overthrowing governments by force either. So I don’t support insurgents trying to depose governments violently, and also I don’t support police killing people. The ideal situation would be to identify and arrest rioters. Which is, as it turned out, exactly what the US did until the new administration took over.
The idea that rioters attacking and beating people to death should be reasonably countered with expanding bullets, that poles and firebombs are reasonably opposed by rifles, frankly puts you in some sorry moral company. You should take a hard look at yourself if that’s the kind of behavior you condone from a government, under any circumstance. Professional soldiers and law enforcement don’t kill civilians.
I am against any lethal action by governments towards their own citizens
“Governments are only meant to kill subhuman foreigners!”
tbf no one knows whatever happened to Tank Man it’s heavily censored
Yeah ice killed a couple people and we are dealing with that.
The tanks are on their way to kill 2600 unarmed people.
Only a few hundred died, many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response), none in the square itself, and the tanks pictured are leaving the square where nobody died.
Only a few hundred died
Dude, you’re saying that as if it’s okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response)
Source? Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP’s orders. The army was initially sent in because the strikes weren’t ending and the government was not willing to meet the demands.
My favorite fed
Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP’s orders.
The people in the square left peacefully and without the use of violence. There was no “standoff” in the square. The violence occurred in other neighborhoods, not in the square itself. You can find contemporaneous Western media coverage confirming this, because there were a lot of Western media there at the time. It’s well documented. That’s why we say that the “Tiananmen square massacre” is a myth, because it wasn’t in Tiananmen square massacre and it wasn’t a “massacre.” The military didn’t kettle peaceful protesters into a square and indiscriminately mow them down and crush them under tanks.
I didn’t claim there was? The “standoff” happened on the way to the square, not the square itself, when protestors blocked the PLA from advancing.
Still, hundreds (up to 2600 according to historians) died.
A few hundred dead protesters is extremely better than being overthrown by the US, preventing that is actually really cool and does in fact make them look good
The protestors were heavily factionalised. They weren’t universally pro-US. The US was happy to foment dissent, but ultimately the protestors were still socialists and had not insignificant support within the CCP itself.
Cool story
Dude, you’re saying that as if it’s okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
There’s a huge difference between “the CPC ran over 10,000 innocent schoolchildren in Tian’anmen square with tanks” and “riots around Beijing resulted in firebombings of PLA vehicles and lynchings of PLA officers, who then responded with force, resulting in a few hundred deaths in total.”
Here’s a pretty good overview. Two days prior to June 4th, unarmed officers were lynched and firebombed in their vehicles. That’s why the PLA was sent in to begin with, which then cascaded into rioters blocking the PLA’s advance and escalations into killings on both sides. It wasn’t an “even fight,” it was the PLA vs. rioters, but even still it was the rioters that struck first, hard.
That’s a pretty blatant misrepresentation of what happened though. This makes it sound like the rioters started the violence on June 2nd forcing a government response, but that’s not the case. The CCP had already declared martial law on May 20th and had mobilised 30 divisions. The PLA was first sent in at that time, but because the protestors blocked them they couldn’t advance into the city and were ordered to wait on the 24th.
On the 1st of June, two individual reports (the Li Peng report and the MMS report) were published within the Politburo, decrying US influences and advocating direct military action. The CCP decided that day that military action would be used against the protestors.
June 2nd saw an incident with a PAP jeep that inflamed tensions. But I can’t personally find a source claiming firebombings and lynchings at this time. The jeep incident was the trigger that made the students believe military action was at hand though. Only on June 3rd did tensions escalate further, when the PLA advanced into the city and clashed with protestors trying to repel them. This is when I can first find the protestors using molotov cocktails and trying to beat soldiers to death, but at the same time the PLA had opened fire with live, expanding ammunition on the protestors (so they certainly weren’t ‘unarmed’). From there it only escalated further of course. So the protestors were fighting in response to the PLA advancing into the city to break up the protest, not the other way around.
Martial Law is not the same as actual killings, moreover the Liberation News article is well-sourced. As for the killed soldiers, there are pictures of them (NSFL) if you really want to see proof.
Martial law is what mobilized the army, which you falsely claimed happened after protestors started killing unarmed PLA soldiers. I didn’t equivocate it to killings.
And of those killed soldiers, here’s what your own source says: https://xcancel.com/SebasdePeru/status/1533603901508820994#m
Killed for having murdered four protestors. Not so “unarmed” either then. Additionally, those pictures are from June 3rd/4th, which again is after the PLA was ordered to move in and when they started killing protestors if they refused to clear out. Obviously the protestors will attempt to defend themselves against such aggression.
Martial law was declared, and then rioters started killing unarmed PLA officers. This is what prompted the PLA’s response, the violent clashes started after martial law was declared, and rioters started killing officers. Secondly, the source says much of this happened on June 2nd, which backs up the Liberation School article and its sources. Thirdly, the idea that the officer had already murdered 4 people came from the people who killed him, not an outside verified source. In an event where we already know much has been mythologized, this single officer may or may not have been guilty, but was far from the only murdered officer.
I think you mean two million people
and we are dealing with that.
By throwing dildos at the concentration camps and dancing?
Well if we did Tianeman square style we would just have a bunch of idiots that supported it and called us terrorists against the government.
You know, exactly how you are doing right now in this comment I replied to about the citizens of China standing up to its oppressive government. Didn’t work out. They lost and Chinese government sympathizers blame the people who stood up for their beliefs.
Seems like if we did do something we are bloodthirsty CIA backed terrorists but if we dont do something we are just pussies throwing dildos eh?
I forget your stance are you for people standing up to the government or against it? Or just against people doing it to the chinese government huh?
“Is an image of some tanks” is the heaviest lifting fucking sentence I’ve seen in a long ass time.
What is the bottom photo?
The lady who got shot in Minneapolis.
Renée Good was her name
Ok.
And both pictures show off firsthand a brutal government dictatorship (in everything but name) that is actively going against the will of its people and stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
The protestors in Tian’anmen were a mix of Maoist die-hards upset at Reform and Opening Up, and student protestors backed by the CIA that wanted to liberalize the economy. They didn’t have a consistent goal. Decades later, over 90% of the public in China support their government:
Because if they didn’t they were disappeared for re-education lol
If the Chinese people agree with you, they’re being honest. If the Chinese people disagree with you, they actually secretly agree with you but are too scared to say it.
Bro this is just political Niceguyism. “No dude she totally likes me and hates her boyfriend of 5 years, she’s just too afraid of him to show it. He’s probably abusive.”
No? Harvard studied this, it’s because the government consistently delivers on its ambitious promises in uplifting the lives of working people.
You ever see those workplace review things where it turns out almost everyone at the company is super thrilled with management and wouldn’t change a thing?
Or is it only you that can engage in whataboutism?
The pictures still show two shitty controlling governments bringing the boot down on the throats of their citizens who dare to get in their way or stand up for their “rights”
You have a hypothesis with no backing. Back up your hypothesis, or accept that the citizenry of China support it because it works really well and is getting better all the time. Obviously people would change a lot about China, the major difference is that they expect the government to bring about that change, rather than assuming it won’t.
Further, no, the rioters in Beijing were firebombing PLA vehicles and lynching officers before the PLA was sent in. That’s why hundreds died.
Oh yes the place where they had to install nets in factories to keep people jumping out has to have good ratings. I believe it.
Also no, I did provide sources. China itself doesn’t deny the use of those vans btw they would have to build an insane number of lethal injection rooms otherwise.
All of its been reported on by Reuters.
Here’s one I found immediately about the nets. I can find another one for the vans I’m sure but I’ll probably have that comment removed by mods too while they talk to me about “propaganda” and “censorship”
Ohhhh I see now that it is lemmy. Ml. Hahahahhaha ok yeah makes sense carry on.
Hey, notice how I didn’t lie about how my government is shit and oppresses its people? Its only one side that seems to do that.
People have reported on the execution vans, that’s just fake though. As for the suicide nets, the PRC has a lower suicide rate than the US, and lower than Taiwan, so not sure what your point is there.
Well they kinda have to or one of those murder vans shows up. A lot of doctors regularly get 100 percent of the vote. That must mean they were beloved dictators?
What on Earth are you talking about?
He is saying a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings. Misspelled it as doctor.
And the “murder vans” is a reference to execution vans that China uses.
“Yunnan officials authorized the use of execution vans in March 2003 and the province deployed 18 vans in the same year. Zhao Shijie, president of the Yunnan Provincial High Court, said, “The use of lethal injection shows that China’s death penalty system is becoming more civilized and humane”. Amnesty International expressed concern that the use of execution vans could increase the use of executions. The Supreme People’s Court encouraged provinces to adopt execution vans in December 2003.[2]”
There is a lot of activity about the vans being talked about online I am surprised you haven’t heard of this before.
Your evidence for the claim “Yunnan officials have started using execution vans at the behest of the Supreme People’s Court and Amnesty International is concerned” is…
…the Wikipedia pages for Yunnan, Amnesty International and the Supreme People’s Court.
Did you think people wouldn’t check?
Execution vans aren’t a real thing, though. China does have the death penalty, but not in this comical way, same as PLA suicide helmets. I’ve seen the claim before, but it’s ridiculous to believe them. You can see that the sources in the Wikipedia article don’t even back up what is claimed.
As for the idea that “a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings,” I don’t see how it matters. Fear of the possibility of something isn’t evidence of it happening.
stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
Comrades, you ever notice how when communists write about things like this it reads like a history book and when libs write about things like it it reads like young adult fiction? These mfs think they’re giving a speech in a movie
The other was taken before the murder of several civilians.
The video very clearly shows the tanks leaving the square
