“Telegram is not a private messenger. There’s nothing private about it. It’s the opposite. It’s a cloud messenger where every message you’ve ever sent or received is in plain text in a database that Telegram the organization controls and has access to it”
“It’s like a Russian oligarch starting an unencrypted version of WhatsApp, a pixel for pixel clone of WhatsApp. That should be kind of a difficult brand to operate. Somehow, they’ve done a really amazing job of convincing the whole world that this is an encrypted messaging app and that the founder is some kind of Russian dissident, even though he goes there once a month, the whole team lives in Russia, and their families are there.”
" What happened in France is they just chose not to respond to the subpoena. So that’s in violation of the law. And, he gets arrested in France, right? And everyone’s like, oh, France. But I think the key point is they have the data, like they can respond to the subpoenas where as Signal, for instance, doesn’t have access to the data and couldn’t respond to that same request. To me it’s very obvious that Russia would’ve had a much less polite version of that conversation with Pavel Durov and the telegram team before this moment"
I’m on dat Molly
“Don’t use those other chat apps, where the barbarous Russians or sneaky Arabs could compel your data. Use my app instead: FedChat: Built For Feds, By Feds” - Feddy McFedderson, founder of SignalI mean I’m not a huge Signal fan but I certainly trust them far more than either telegram or whatsapp. I would at least be ok installing telegram if I had to; if someone told me I needed to download a meta product to save my own life I’d tell them I’m ready to die.
Why are they sitting in a sauna?
Build sauna, host interview in sauna, sauna is tax writeoff
Depending on country you may be able to subsidize only part of the sauna as a business expense if it’s a sauna at your home office, but actually hosting interviews in it would for sure help your case in claiming it to be operated for business.
I don’t know how it is in the US though.
Damn that’s brilliant.
No windows, therefore quiet, and good acoustics.
Better than American big tech chats. It may not be private but its a very good chat app. Definently the best designed one from a user interface point of view.
Why is this interview happening inside a sauna?
for the thumbnail :)
She likes putting guests on the hot seat.
To me, that is just clickbait.
Why not? I thought it was een interesting choice ;-P
Why is this interview happening inside a sauna?
It’s his personal sauna. He built it himself.
Why did he invite the hot reporter chick to his sauna? would be the follow-up question…
It’s a sauna on a boat. She’s out in the middle of nowhere with some dude she barely knows. You know, she looks around and what does she see? Nothin’ but open ocean.
it’s the D.E.N.N.I.S. system working
Because of the implication…
That explains that awkward interaction in the interview. It’s like an interview happening in the Black Lodge.
You answered yourself.
If I had a personal sauna, I’d invite everyone. But I’m not from puritan central (USA) so that might be a foreign concept to some readers.
Right? If they’re just chatting this should be happening in a jacuzzi with nice glasses of milk 🍼 👍
If you watch the video - its explained starting at 1:13, Moxie built it himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPRi7mAGp7I
That’s fucking awesome
Like in a sauna you should be completely exposed or something
They say the trick to public speaking is to picture the audience naked, but I actually prefer to do my interviews in a sauna so the audience pictures me naked.
Somehow all these years I thought that Marlinspike is either Swedish or Finnish, so the sauna would be on brand.
Are they in a sauna?
A floating sauna. He built this himself.
Where I am, Telegram is mainly used by alt- und far right figures close to Russia. Facts don’t matter in these circles any more. Feelings do. And Durov knows how to manage those.
These people are foolish to use telegram, it’s just a plain-text unencrypted app. Plus there’s scams and spam all the time on telegram but not on signal.
These people are foolish for reasons far worse than just using Telegram.
Especially after Telegtam started working with authorities and handing out user / chat info.
And WhatsApp is worse. It fails to include a libre software license text file. We do not control it. It is never secure.
It fails to include a libre software license text file.
I don’t think this really makes sense as the leading point. More like “It’s run by Meta and who knows what kind of backdoor they put in”
Yeah, it uses the signal protocol, but who’s to say they don’t have a secret member of every conversation.
I think WhatsApps biggest risk is the metadata. They know every group you are in and who else is in that group. They know when messages are sent and to who. They know where you are at all times, and probably have access to your libraries as well if you didn’t specifically restrict that. It’s a huge trove of data, which one would assume is freely shared with governments on request.
I have a credible source that says they’re scanning media being sent. They have a CSAM or related department. No idea how that works but I heard it exists. Can’t find anything about it on the internet however to confirm
I wouldn’t say it’s worse. It technically claims to have end-to-end encryption while telegram doesn’t. I wouldn’t trust it at all because it’s from Meta, but I don’t see how you can say the one at least claiming to have encryption is worse than the one that just flat out doesn’t have it.
End to end encryption is worth nothing when WhatsApp have access to the encryption key. And the fact that all photos you see on WhatsApp are saved on your phone without encryption means that it’s only encrypted when it’s sent, nowhere else.
I also have very suspicious examples of advertising linked to WhatsApp conversations.
Yes, it’s not good. We’re talking about if it is worse than telegram though. Not if it’s simply good or not.
I thought I was pretty fucking clear on that in my original comment?
From my perspective, I’d rather have an enemy of country to have my personal data. It’s far harder to use for them than for my country.
Worse with an asterisk. For making contents encrypted - no, anything else - yes
It’s not.
pro tip: there is no such thing as a fully private app or communications channel unless you are face to face with someone and in a Cone of Silence™.
True. But there are still degrees of privacy you can achieve without going to extremes.
While that is true to a degree, it is still worthwhile to have a hierarchy of escalation about on which app or platform it is safe to say which thing and which not.
was hoping the reference was going to be recognized. :)
Didn’t JUST get this way, we been smart
Unfortunately, this is a barbell of silence. Privacy won’t hold up to our expectations unless it is cone shaped.
What?
WHAT?!
Why not? If the service is fully decentralized and e2e enceyptwe with metadata included how is this not fully private?
I suppose someone with access to the network could see were the traffic is going to and from, in that case add a trusted vpn + tor. Ok sure it is possible for tor to be tracked and it is possible for a team to hijack your vpn providers servers forecefully and take logs. So technically possible. But even then they will only find who you are talking to, not what you are saying.
But it is also much easier to use countless tracking techiques to locate you, find were you are going and find who you are talking to.
Both of these are very unlikely to happen unless you are being personally targeted by govenment agencies.
and in the US, as ab example, the gov is actively targeting citizens and noncitizens without the required warrants.
so yeah. assume the worst and prepare accordingly.
It doesn’t matter how private and secure the messaging app is if the OS / keyboard / some random Google slopware with notifications access / physical device is compromised.
But for 99% of people, Signal, Telegram or even WhatsApp is good enough.
I’ve been saying this for years. Telegram is a social media app.
Yes, but did they have a sauna together afterwards?
Seriously though, Signal founder should be careful not to use too much free speech around this, as even sauna can have 2nd floor windows you can fall out of.
Just tell people Telegram and Whatsapp and the TenCent clones are all the same. Signal is a bit better, matrix should be standard, and indeed, face to face without any electronics and lots of background noise is still best.
Signal is also not private
The onus is on you to back up that claim
It’s really the opposite, considering its a centralized server hosted in the USA. Signal’s “Trust me bro” is not an adequate security model.
Look for other comments in this thread that back up this well-known fact.
it’s useless, signal fanatics is unbearable
Ahh yes. The anti-vaxxers “do your own research” defense.
Try harder if you’re trying to troll or offend, your attempt is pathetic.
It’s not “do your own research”, it’s “use the fucking scroll wheel”.
\0No one told OP to make that claim. The onus is on them to back it up.
Pretty sure signal is not the best option, but telegram should be avoided at all costs.
What do you mean?
DoDDOW uses it, it must be super secure /sIt is as long as you pay attention to who is in a group chat
Why do you say signal is not the best option? My only discomfort with it is the phone number requirement (and I think they maybe relaxed that)
Supported by US nasty agencies… They do NOT care about any-ones ‘privacy’ and would only support if they have another purpose or a way in…
Phone number requirements + afaik servers are in USA + it was some cryptocurrency related story (they tried to add some crypto wallet at some point)
afaik servers are in USA
You mean one of the few countries not currently trying to dismantle encryption?
Yeah, you can make payments with MobileCoin. 🤮
Luckily, Signal does give you the option to completely ignore it. I only see it mentioned in the settings and I have not enabled it.
Same with stories, you can enable/disable them. Although, if I want to convince my normies friends to look at Signal using stories probably helps that. 🤷
It’s important to remember that for a lot of programs that have some tangentially related crypto feature, crypto used to be popular. It still is popular in some circles. There was a time when it made sense to include those features because users were asking for it. So time, money, and energy was spent to add those features.
What do you expect them to do with those feature now? You really think they’re just going to delete them? Why would they remove an already developed and implemented feature? They hurt nothing. People don’t have to use them. Them existing doesn’t take anything away from the app functionality.
It’s like being upset that old car models weren’t recalled to remove ash trays and cigarette lighters when smoking became unpopular.
It’s not the wallet itself that bothers me (it is these days equivalent of adding some ai feature), but the story behind their involvement with and promotion of a particular blockchain or coin . Frankly can’t recall all the details .
Damn near everyone was making a coin at some point. Again, why would they remove or get rid of a feature they spent time, money, and energy to develop when it doesn’t hurt anything by being there. In fact, they’d have to spend more time, money, and energy to remove it than if they just left it in place.
Ah I am not bothered by the cryptocurrency … thing. It’s pretty well buried in the app, and doesn’t seem like anything they’re particularly trying to push. More like a failed experiment.
How is signal not the best option?
Tbf, there’s options that are just as secure and don’t require a phone # to register, but that doesn’t make Signal bad
Signal does not require a phone number to register anymore, afaik.
Signal still requires a phone number. What was added is usernames for contacts, so you no longer need to give other people your phone number for them to contact you. It is a step in the right direction, but it would be great for them to get rid of the phone number requirement all together.
Ah thank you for the clarification!
Signal is good because it is easy to get others on board because of its simplicity, while having good encryption and security. However, SimpleX is just a better option. No phone number required, the same encryption, you can make a new profile whenever you want and you can have however many you want at a time. The groups can hold thousands of people. You can have it automatically make a new anonymous profile for you for each contact and group so that you can’t be tracked across them apart from your writing style. There are no usernames, you add each other through links, which can be temporary or permanent, and you can add or remove a link whenever you want.
Sorry for that big wall of text, I just spat out all the things SimpleX is better for. I think that it’s platform is the future.
the tracking argument against signal is pretty weak imo… signal has no ability to build a social graph because in 2018 they implemented a feature called sealed sender which is a cryptographic mechanism that allows you to send a message without disclosing to signal who you are (the receiver still knows, and rate limiting still works)
the reality of signal having your phone number is they know you (as an identity/person) use signal and that’s it
I know about that and that’s why I’m not worried about them having my phone number, but its still a pointless requirement. What if I don’t have a phone number for privacy reasons? SimpleX is still better in every way other than simplicity.
i’d agree that for privacy alone simplex is probably better, but until it scales i’m not sure we can say that it will be able to scale. i have my doubts, simply because if you can have unlimited anonymous profiles, when it becomes a high value target then spam becomes a real problem, and then there’s only 2 major solutions that i can think of:
- raising the barrier to creating new accounts so that accounts become relatively expensive (essentially what the phone number does)
- spam filters, like email, which is a whole separate system that can be abused like it has been with email
Well spam seems pretty easy to combat. A lot of the groups make you talk to the admins and wait before you can talk, and you can have it so you approve contacts before they can contact you using one of your links. And if one of your links falls to spam, you can just delete it. I’d say spam isn’t really an issue.
that’s reasonable. perhaps the best service is one with both options: you can somehow have a verified account that lets you msg people you haven’t connected with (perhaps they have an “allow from verified” contact option), and join groups without verification, but that you can also have unlimited anonymous accounts that are assumed spammy
I randomly got banned on telegram I have no idea why.
Were you using it to catfish strangers via DM? If you weren’t, maybe they banned you for misuse of the platform.
Nope I wouldn’t even know how to start doing that. The last convo I had was with some dude I used to know who’s been hanging out with Zionists because he’s in the psytrance scene. He started talking about how there are to many people on earth and we need to get rid of some of them stop climate change, he was also ranting that single fathers have no rights (which isn’t true in the place where I live). I told him that he’s being kinda fascist and then the next day I was banned, maybe he reported me but I didn’t want to give telegram my full name so I was just like fuck this platform. All I wanted from that guy was to get some synths back that I lent him.
Oh, I was just making a cheap joke. I used Telegram for a while for a specific group, and in that time I was inundated with catfishing bot messages. The joke was that that’s the purpose of Telegram and if you’re doing any else on it, you’re misusing it.
It was a very funny joke.
Went right over my head.
AI moderation made worse, not distinguishing between a bot and and real user.
Ya or I just pissed off the telegram douche bag, all these idiots know me.
When you build a backdoor into your “encrypted messenger” its just a surveillance app
