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I don’t think OP is implying while loops require ideological understandings, but rather more foundationally as to understand how computer commodities are made and traded, the concept of centralization simply arises. Thus, the discussion of control, IP, etc, and now AI and labor.
But why would that be discussed in an intro to programming class?
Typically, historically, it didn’t matter really. Moore’s Law, general positive vibes from the prospect of computer tech in the future of the industry, and why scare undergrads seeking good salaries away from institutions taking donations from said corps? But things are pretty different now. AI is less of a thought experiment than before. What better lens to analyze AI than from labor in economics, i.e., Marxism?
The students joined the class to learn programming, and not to analyze AI? It’s like if I joined a pottery class and the teacher spent an hour talking about how pottery isn’t a high paying profession. I didn’t come for life advice or economic rambling, I came to learn pottery.
Because people are using AI in programming now. It will only be utilized more as time goes on. Getting into the risks and reward are necessary to know what to do and what not to do. Or at the very least what to be wary of.
Introduction Courses are the Who, What, When, Why, Where, and How. Knowing what you’re getting into and what you will be dealing with are just as foundational.
It will only be utilized more as time goes on.
What makes you think so?
I don’t see people giving up on it anytime soon. I do think eventually it will serve some kind of purpose or be refined enough to be reliable in some way. I think far too many people jumped into this stuff with both feet thinking the future is now and skipped over creating shortcuts for tasks in an effort to take shortcuts for profits.
And there are plenty of people who are willing to use and abuse this tech for nefarious purposes. Deep fakes, fraud, etc. they definitely won’t give it up as they don’t care about the effects on the rest of us
AI is used in every field now. Programming courses can just do what every other course does: tell the student that nobody can stop them from using AI, but if you do be prepared to fail the test. Leveraging AI for work, and the ethics of doing so, is something that can be covered in a different class. But my intro programming course taught the basics of programming, not what industry programming was like. Just like my intro to chemistry course never taught what it was like to work in the chemistry industry.
How many programmers DON’T use AI to some degree already? As the technology continues to improve adoption and usage will only increase. Actually hand coding stuff is soon to be a mostly lost craft.
Programmers use AI to do work. The goal is to get work done. But the goal of a class is to learn. If the AI is helping you learn then that it’s probably fine, though many studies indicate that using AI actually hinders learning.
My bad for looking for nuance in a microblog meme, jesus. Education ain’t just the literal skills and nothing else, y’know. Teachers and classes are more than just human textbooks and tutorials.
And yet, the intro programming class I took just focused on the skills and I thought it was great. I’m mainly refuting OPs implication that you have to teach leftist ideology in order to teach programming. It sounds like they just want to teach leftist ideology, which imo is fine as long as it’s stated in the syllabus, so the students know what they are signing up for.
I’m glad your personal experience was great, I get where u are coming from. In most other similar situations, that tracks. Some topics do truly have little to no need for an in-depth political angle. And yes, most of my enjoyable classes too were non-political, although not because they were non-political.
But what is so fundamental to “leftist ideology” (I take that as Marxist economics, to be clear), is the role of labor in the material world. That’s the shortest I can boil that down to. And today, in “2026,” with the prevalence of AI, and based on the post mentioning “leftist ideology” and “teaching an intro to comp sci class,” what else could they be talking about? AI, as we all know, is a labor-cost saver for bosses. Economically, that is what it is hoped to function as. It is (ideally) a profit increaser. That’s just the math that any and all capitalist follows. A teacher that understands that, and is in the position of progressing their students’ careers, yeah, can’t blame them for “seeing it everywhere” and wanting to share that.
I don’t think OP is implying while loops require ideological understandings
I am.
The slaving masses of the proletarian transistors are being controlled, dictated, and trapped in a perpetual loop by an entity the systems deem as superior, the bourgeoisie user. Only by breaking the chains of these oppressive confines can we liberate the process.
And thus, you need to make sure you have a break clause for your loops.
Bits together byte!!
That’s a new line for me! Thanks!
sudo chown -R means-of-production
(please please please be my prof next semester…)
What’s so political about hello world, data structures and algorithms?
It’s not that these things inherently are political. It’s more that society is being driven more and more towards consumerism, and learning programming is inimical to consumerism. It’s teaching you how to make the sausage, which you can’t do without also learning how the sausage is made. Then there’s learning about things like open-source licenses, which are about as leftist as you can get - and which is critically important to know about when you start writing code.
Ok, I’m old. When I started writing software, the licenses where not a big issue. I mean GPL & BSD existed and where important but most newbies wouldn’t think about publishing their shitty first steps and wouldn’t even understand how to use 3rd party libraries. There was no GitHub (I believe Sourceforge existed) and package managers where not very common. I mean Linux had them but Linux was quite a bit more difficult to run (installation, drivers, graphics etc).
So software licenses where a topic but not at introduction level.
Data structures: authority
Algorithms: the system
Hello world: community
Would have saved us a lot of trouble if it had been this whole damn while.
Not sure what the discussion was, but, I recall they changed terms like Master/slave a few years back (maybe in the linux kernel), to make things nicer. I have no problem with this (not a big deal).
I think changing “slave” is a good idea, but “master” isn’t a problematic term; however I still prefer main because it makes more sense to me and it’s already a common programming term.
All that being said, we clearly should’ve changed it to “The Mistress branch” instead.
Actually… Found the discussion: https://www.linuxfoundation.org/blog/blog/master-slave-and-the-fight-over-offensive-terms-in-computing-kate-conger-new-york-times-april-13-2021
It was the Internet Engineering Task Force. But not sure if this is what is being referred to in this case
I am still shaking my head about this. Were it framed like “ahem, we don’t like those words anymore and think that these are better”, I would have no issues at all. But no, they just had to drag history of black people (for those about to be offended: I come from a place were “black” and even “removed” do not have any negative connotations whatsoever) into fucking programming. That is idiotic
Lool. Really?
IDE drives
I guess it is just a matter of time before the Trump regime designates logic as hardcore leftist ideology
Haven’t they already? Wasn’t that what the attacks on the various universities were last summer?
What is the saying? Something about people who learn about how technology works begin to shun technology?
If it’s science, it’s woke!
Real patriots use the abacus.Look at the fancy pants here that uses advanced technology like the abacus instead of counting on their nine fingers like the rest of us!
The abacus is also woke unfortunately
Dang it. Is it the bead colors?
Math is woke
Are we supposed to be bartering with sheep?
It’s not even that “hardcore” of ideology honestly. It depends a lot on the lens you view it through your society. If it’s far right, then saying “water is a human right!” is going to seem extreme leftism.
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What do you mean with critical theory?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_theory
There are different forms but it’s basically getting woke to class struggle between people who own shit and rent it out and people who get paid a bit to use the shit, but never actually get to own real shit or control what shit they decide to do.
I’m putting it pretty bluntly and pretty woke…ly, and a lil but Marxly. It’s also about analyzing systems we use to organise ourselves and what they do to us. Basically how to get people to actually wake up to how and why things are how they are and maybe how they could be different / better.
In the context of STEM students who focus on inputs, outputs, and engines at the expense of considering societal impacts (or simply telling themselves it’s the job of poor humanities students to get elected and pass laws to constrain the most egregious negative externalities of technology) it’s asking who an efficiency is for. Efficiency cannot exist in a moral vacuum. As Kim Stanley Robinson summarized in The Ministry for the Future (2020):
… there is good efficiency and bad efficiency, good inefficiency and bad inefficiency. … preventative health care saves enormous amounts in medical costs later, and is a good efficiency. Eating your extra children (this is Swift’s character’s “modest proposal”) would be a bad efficiency. Any harm to people for profit is likewise bad, no matter how efficient. Using an over-sized vehicle to get from point A to point B is a bad inefficiency, and there are many more like it; but oxbows in a river, defining a large flood plain, is a good inefficiency
civil engineer […] didn’t know what gentrification was…
Sweet jebus on ice-skates. The guy was potentially a literal if not figurative architect in service of one of the most profound mechanisms of gentrification and hadn’t heard of it?! That’s like designing cars and being unaware of traffic jams and induced demand.
Isn’t it funny how people who “have things” are less likely to be all that interested in leftism. And those who don’t have “things” look at them, want more leftism because they want want the “things” the people who have “things” and they don’t have.
And neither side understands the other.
What do you mean?
I have more things than I could ever want.
I want more agency.
Leftists aren’t jealous of rich people. Slanderous and incorrect
I just want to be able to live life as carefree as they can without regards to money. It’s a bit of jealousy but it’s not the overriding reason for it.
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That leftism is a product of ressentiment from people who don’t have “things” against people who have “things”, I guess. ContraPoints-level take tbh.
I hate billionaires, not because I want to be a miserable sociopath with too much money, but because they are largely the reason that any kind of improvement to our planet and species is being blocked. I support socialized healthcare, not because I envy those who have the money to pay for live-saving healthcare, but because I don’t want to fucking die, etc. etc.
There certainly are people like BadEmpanada, who oppose unions and welfare so that “first-worlders can suffer”, but they certainly don’t reflect what leftism is in general.
BE
BE on twitter and BE while actually speaking seriously are like two different people. He seems to have an unhealthy addiction to creating twitter ragebate. I would not take it literally.
I agree, and I’d add it’s not even a specifically left wing impulse either. The Roman Republic of all institutions was deeply concerned with the idea that republics shouldn’t have private princes as well as kings. The fact the Roman Republic failed to contain its oligarchy to the point of fundamental destabilisation into arbitrary power is evidence people ought to pay attention to left wingers when they say the same thing about billionaires and the concentration of wealth.
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They don’t understand either side.
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That’s a different person you’re replying to
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Isn’t it funny how people who “have food” are less likely to be all that interested in leftism. And those who don’t have “food” look at them, want more leftism because they want want the “food” the people who have “food” and they don’t have.
It’s still garbled, but makes a better point.
Your edit makes a good insinuation “they’re just things” people think objects are frivolous things that tie you down because they’ve never experienced genuine lack.
Not like lack of toys, but the bear necessities of survival.
The basic necessities should just be provided, by that I mean food and shelter and basic medical care. If people want to live luxuriously that’s fantatic, going and toiling, innovating or improving their situation in someway should be encouraged; but no one should ever be shelterless and hungry.
I have plenty of things, and still support pretty left wing ideas (except for the violence that some people here seem think is required to be considered left).
Ayn Rand has entered the chat.
Programming?
scoffs
Woke.
I’m Antigramming like a true Patriot.
My programs are pat/riot
maybe post the notes for critique? this is bait
Strange how I’m the polar opposite of a leftist and seem to excel at my programming job of 7 years when I was all entirely self-taught in the years leading up to it
It’s almost like programming syntax and structure for every popular language in the world has absolutely nothing to do with politics but you all want to pretend otherwise, how interesting!
I guess we simply can’t teach the basics of array indexing within a for loop without mentioning how evil it is to vote for Donald Trump midway through… oh wait yea we can we just choose not to and pretend it’s not possible XD
Be sure to read through an entire novel on x86 intel assembly and let me know what political stance the language has, the countless MOV inputs within the source code for all NES games is rooted in leftist ideology surely
Clown world to the extreme, I cannot comprehend programming being remotely linked to politics outside of purposely naming your variables certain ways intentionally, what’s next will walking a dog be political in 2030? Better not own a white fur dog guys
“What a jester this comrade is. Computers don’t know politics, stupid. How could they think that there’s any ‘leftism’ [🤮] when I, a proud and open chud, am paid money by some rich guy to make computers at the computer store (that I franchise from him as his self-taught business apparentice 😎).”
Y’know I remember ten years ago we had guys like you who thought it was stupid to unionize compsci work or form some guild that could enforce minimum protections. Wonder how they’re doing these days.
Great argument pal, you’ve really convinced me that it’s impossible to teach people what an if else statement is without preaching how evil people are who don’t believe in extremist leftist political nonsense
Oh wait no you haven’t you’re just babbling irrelevant nonsense that has nothing to do with this at all, banger!
Oh, you must have misunderstood. They’re not doing well, those people got fired in subsequent waves as their skills became less valuable and there was nothing stopping mass firings. Should have made that more clear for the lawnmower man.
I mean, there’s plenty of things that can be considered left-leaning about it, but they all pretty much surround the culture of programming work. I would tend to agree that there’s nothing inherently leftist about programming in general, but I could see how they may feel about it when discussing open source software, AI, and how progressive the general demographics of college educated programmers would tend to be.
That said, your response is a little… much.
It’s fine they’ll all downvote me without being able to respond, it’s the classic low IQ lemmy special, puts the Leddit hivemind to shame
how progressive the general demographics of college educated programmers would tend to be.
I assure you this foundation is laid well before they reach the age of specializing into programming, it’s why there’s such a gigantic disparity from self-taught programmers (which none of these lemmings can grasp ofc)
Open-source software is a valid point though, I’ve already seen that first-hand from the Loonatix lmao can confirm
your response is a little… much.
Just look at how they act to me, I have no respect for these emotional losers who throw meltdowns over the truth they ‘don’t like hearing’ and exaggerate literal fantasy nonsense in an attempt to screech back as if it’s a valid counter-argument, normal responses like your own are the rarity on this website
You do you but I’ll be gone from this place in no time, what’s the point in involving yourself with such a clueless emotional baby community like this website houses, pure emotion > logic on here which they reward each other for acting like purely since they subjectively agree XD
People ‘screech’ at you because you sound like an arsehole, dude. Try being less up yourself and you might have a better time.
Couldn’t have been an easier thing to refute and yet you still fumbled it with the whiney victim card.
Couldn’t have been an easier thing to refute and yet you still fumbled it with the whiney victim card.
You say, as you yourself appear incapable of refuting anything I’ve said - curious!
Love getting endless responses by emotional people upset enough to reply yet not one of them makes any point against anything I’ve actually said, very intelligent people on here
Click the down arrow quick just click it and run without any proper response (since you all can’t give one ofc), emotional lemmingz malding at the truth, what else is new hold hands and pretend fantasy is reality together quick!!!
You’re a 100% correct. You’re just getting downvoted because you claim to be “the polar opposite of a leftist”.
So you don’t believe in science, but know how to program?
Your brain must be like a clear jelly by now
I’m the polar opposite of a leftist
A nazi?
You don’t need to go all the way to poles to find Nazis on the right in {current year}
Yeah everyone who disagrees with you extremists and forms their own unique personal opinions based on the facts of reality is a nazi ofc
Then you all sit around confused wondering why this platform isn’t taken serious by literally anyone outside of it
“Hrmmm well 99% of people on the planet must simply be evil nazis unlike us!” Yeah surely bro surely, it’s those who are the crazy ones for sure!
I just stumbled into this discussion, but it seems to me like you were the one to introduce extremism when you took an ideology and called yourself the “polar opposite” of it.
Legit this behaviour right here is why everyone normal and sane within our entire world on every other mainstream platform full of average people with normal morals and values views you extremists as clowns by default fyi
You’ve swung that label around to the point where it means nothing at all, no actual points no nothing just ‘oh you disagree so you’re a nazi lawlz!’ and this community is so deep within this fantasy that you all hold hands, agree and upvote each other by default no matter how utterly ridiculous you look
Now feel free to downvote me to -50 now as an emotional response as if it’ll change this truth of this
“AGREE WITH ME OR YOU’RE EVIL BECAUSE… BECAUSE… BECAUSE YOU JUST ARE, OKAY??!?” - You
Ok
Oh I just typed the perfect reply to someone else which also fits you perfectly, huh how strange almost like you all act the same on here running on pure emotion!
Here’s what my previous reply to them 3 minutes ago literally just said:
Congrats on a counter-argument that addresses zero of my points - naturally you’ll never acknowledge what I actually said since you cannot argue against it
So you’ll just rummage through for anything else to say, “hurr durr nice meltdown bro lol!” to avoid responding properly, peak emotional lemmy logic
Be sure to try that in a live debate one day; it’ll go really well for you, I promise
How fitting for you as well! Imagine initiating a conversation with someone only to then run away when they reply back with something you cannot handle LOL
Quick keep up your act so you can pretend you’re just trolling! Reply back with “Ok” again like a literal child arguing, SUCH a good look for you all on here to immediately shutdown when confronted with reality!
hurr durr nice meltdown bro lol!
Low IQ specimen incapable of debating like an adult
Types drivel when unsure of how to respond, literal child argument tactic “haha I was just trolling!”
Real mature behaviour, you sure “won” this argument vs me alright! This chain was a GREAT look for you!
Now hold this block for me real quick, looks like I get the last reply aw nuu by your own logic I guess that means I win now, poor you :(
haha I was just trolling!
Legit this behaviour right here is why everyone normal and sane within our entire world on every other mainstream platform full of average people with normal morals and values views you extremists as clowns by default fyi
See and I thought Lemmy was too obscure for the average person.
Can’t imagine why
Imagine having a meltdown because you got asked if you were a Nazi, the exact opposite of the extremist “Antifascists”.
Imagine having a meltdown
Does it ever get boring projecting fake fantasies 24/7, defeating said strawman, and attempting to declare victory over having done so
Congrats on a counter-argument that addresses zero of my points - naturally you’ll never acknowledge what I actually said since you cannot argue against it
So you’ll just rummage through for anything else to say, “hurr durr nice meltdown bro lol!” to avoid responding properly, peak emotional lemmy logic
Be sure to try that in a live debate one day; it’ll go really well for you, I promise
Not posting is a free action.
But, for funsies, what else is the exact opposite of a leftist?
NES x86
Be quiet dumb nazi.
HURR NAZI HURR DURR EVERYONE NOT AN EXTREME LEFTIST IS A NAZI HURR DURR I HAVE NO POINTS BUT UR NAZI CUZ U JUST ARE HURRRR UPVOTE ME FRIENDS FOR CALLING EVIL NON-LEFTIST OUR FAVOURITE HOT NAZI WORD MY EXTREMIST LEMMY BRETHREN HURRRRRRR -You
It’s fine, you are the normal ones for thinking like this ofc ;) my "if Highly_emotional_monkey_brain_response == high_IQ, print(“he’s so smart”); resulted in FALSE I’m afraid
It’s been four hours I’m checking in to see at what point you realized that all of these people are messing with you.
I just came back to do the same thing haha
Yeah those for…next loops are pure communism.
This may shock you, but if you think like this, you might be a hardcore leftist.
Also, I’m reminded of the Ghostbusters (1984) quote:
Dr. Raymond Stantz: Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn’t have to produce anything! You’ve never been out of college! You don’t know what it’s like out there! I’ve WORKED in the private sector. They expect results.
The quote is the least believable thing in this move about ghost blowjobs
Yup. I’ve been in academia and in private business. Academia pays terribly and expects a fuck-ton more work. I’m sure there’s places where you can just sleaze by without doing much, but I never saw them. (Which isn’t to say that all academic work is good work. I saw people who got far doing poor research, but they were also working very hard at it.)
