I was once talking with one of my classmates and he said that in the future, there will be universal basic income implemented by entire world. I was not convinced at that time and thought he is just being stupid but given the layoffs happening and massive amount of unemployment, I am thinking about this possibility. What do you say?
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No because corps and oligarchs will campaign against it, inexplicably win, and destroy one of the country’s greatest achievements with cheers and applause
Its cynical, but its happened to many social programs thay way.
I want to believe that progress is inevitable. The living conditions for the working class are better now than they were 100 years ago. Hopefully, by the time another 100 years have passed they will have drastically improved some more.
Unfortunately, the reasons they have improved in the last 100 years are due to constant fighting against the lazy non-working class. Not some evolved sense of society.
I think we might have that someday, and then even after that a cashless society like star trek
I like the idealistic idea behind UBI too, but I think the wealth gap will persist and grow more, with any form of UBI or other welfare as an excuse that the poors are being provided for, so they should be happy with that. The UBI on Earth in The Expanse is what we may end up with. The reason the population on Mars is better and doesn’t rely on that is because it’s much smaller and has a common purpose for long term focus and employment (terraforming). Interestingly, the canon for Star Trek might be along similar lines, as the Federation and the rest that follows only happens after the devastation of World War III.
When Draper visits Earth she learns that the Martian impression of UBI recipients being lazy isn’t true at all, they’re just trapped in the system with only a few able to claw their way out. By design, can’t have everyone prosper, the rich might have to settle for less.
When UBI starts being seriously considered on a large scale, you’ll likely see a massive influence campaign against it. Something along the lines of “If you give people free money, they’ll never get a job.” It will likely have racial undertones that range from subtle and implicit to wildly explicit, depending on the forum.
If low information working class people, those who would benefit the most from such a program, fall for that campaign, as they often do, you’ll see a backlash against it that could prevent it from becoming law.
I don’t feel like UBI is a that great of an idea. Prices of products change toward what people earn. So when there is a standard amount of money for everyone, company’s will increase prices to any amount that’s still payable. That will quickly drive inflation up. I feel like it will just going to siphon money into the pockets of the super rich.
But if you do UBI + NIT it would theoretically be sufficient… Although I still think that a strong price regulation and anti-monopoly/anti-oligopoly law should be done for it to work. So yeah, we’re cooked.
I heard some evangelicals in US saying that it is unbiblical to give UBI, so I can guess that some people really want to demonize this concept.
You just described the campaigns against welfare in general that have been going on for decades, which is also what I see happening with UBI. It will absolutely be sunk the same way any other social benefit is sunk through misinformation and outright lies.
Don’t forget racism. “Look at those people, existing with that color skin. On your dime!?!?”
They called that out specifically
Do you think it would help if you told them 40% of adults already don’t have jobs and that making that number higher isn’t as big of a leap as they think?
I talked with my mother about this years ago. She confidently said, if you give people free money, nobody will do any work. I argued but she wouldn’t budge.
She is now comfortably retired, and makes hats with her time, and sells them. But that’s different.
What if UBI was locked behind biometrics and voting republican?
Man, the whole of europe left out
I’d vote for ubi but i personally know plenty of moochers. Like never worked a day in their lives at 30 would laugh while their grandma died instead of helping their own family while being offered money for it.
Funny enough every mooch i know is a white man.
You know, everyone who I personally know who passionately argues that if you give people free money they won’t do any work has been a stay at home mom.
Stay at home moms get “free” money from the spouse who goes to work and supports them.
I would also argue that stay at home moms work harder than a lot of us who have full time jobs. I get to leave work and mentally check out, they’re “at work” all the time.
Someone should point this out to the people who make this argument.
I think that it will start as an universal basic income but that it will evolve into universal basic products and services. Basic stuff you don’t have to pay for, like for example food and public transport and in time expand to shelter, all levels of education, etc. To the point of covering all the basic needs.
I came looking for a comment like this to agree that we need to discuss UBI more in the context of Universal Services.
Personally, I think there’s a strong chance that universal services will emerge before or alongside a UBI. Both are more likely to grow gradually rather than suddenly.
One great thing about universal services is that they don’t require as much top-down oversight to deploy, imo. You can join groups now that collect and distribute free fruit. Anyone with a skill can begin giving it away; if you’re a lawyer, you can give free legal services to immigrants; if you’re a technician, you can join or set up fixit clinics. Every time folks begin giving away labor value, they’re chipping away at the transactional structure that holds people hostage to capitalist labor markets. And as critical mass builds, more and more people are freed to spend less and less time hustling for their daily bread, and can direct more and more time to this Solidarity Economy. And unlike a UBI, you don’t need the government or the rich to buy-in: you can start practicing these things yourself and with neighbors now.
If you want to build this but want something a little less anarchist, public school systems are an existing prototype of this: that’s why a lot of school systems also engage in food distribution and more recently experiments in social housing. You can join advisory committees and help deploy more services using your school district to pilot universal basic services!
this comment hit me deeply. it has given me SO MUCH to think about. thank you for sharing your thoughts!
first time listening an interesting perspective like this
I think UBI is generally seen as something to do instead of that, a way to put off actually providing for people so that they can continue to funnel capital from the regularly well-off to the obscenely well-off while blaming it on the poor and the increasingly shrinking “middle-class”.
Unfortunately I think you’re right, but it will be provided by the people you work for, and people will say “isn’t it great”.
Not particularly, no. A lot of tech people have been pushing the idea for years largely because it means that they would know what everyone would get on a monthly basis, and could adjust their subscription fees accordingly. The real solution is just to make society more equal, would effectively accomplish the same thing (at least in the US) if there were no more billionaires and public funds were properly allowed (ie Medicare for all) to improve the basics of society.
We’re 30% there already, between long term unemployed and people on social security. I support more. Human rights include food, shelter, healthcare, but not everyone has figured that out yet.
Right? I think 4% of American adults of working age are on ssdi. I’d guestimate another 2-4% are existing on some sort of other welfare type schemes. More housing estates, less aircraft carriers please!
do you think internet can come to rights?
I would argue it already has. We already agreed to fund public libraries through tax dollars. Libraries are inherently information services and include Internet access today.
It might follow that municipal Internet services be made available via taxes so that everyone has equal access to the Internet.
In Kirkland, WA there exists a kind of municipal Wi-Fi offered in its business district. Similarly, most businesses provide free Wi-Fi to anyone within range. These aren’t perfect systems, but provide examples and a path to expand services to a whole community.
I don’t honestly think it will happen in a way that is genuinely good for people. It will happen in a way where the rich and powerful are in control and can use it as a method for maintaining control.
Came here to say this. Nobody in power gives up their power to the masses willingly, it must be taken. And the price is almost always paid in blood and suffering. And every victory is only temporary as they try to regain the power that was taken from them.
I mean you could just make Luigi a national holiday or event. Kill the rich once in a while to keep them in line.
Lol like the purge but only if your net worth is high enough
USian perspective:
Things are currently going in the opposite direction where safety nets are being removed.
In 2027, a huge chunk of low income people will lose Medicaid. It will be hard to see who can stay on it, because in most states with a higher minimum wage, working 80 hours would put them very close to or over the income limit. And people not working also lose it. There are problems people have that aren’t considered “real” disabilities, yet prevent having jobs. Obamacare does provide a low income discount, but there are still multi-thousand dollar deductibles. My prediction is that this is going to put a massive strain on hospitals because people simply won’t be able to pay. We’ll probably start to see some smaller ones go under (already are, actually, but it’s going to get worse, IMO).
I think the Medicaid purge is relevant because working people got jealous that unemployed and poor people had better insurance than they did in some ways, and stripping that made them feel better about their own situation. That goes completely against the spirit of UBI, which is paid to both rich and poor and people in any situation.
UBI would likely result in price hikes where the UBI money wouldn’t provide a real leg up as everything just became more expensive. We just saw that happen with the COVID stimulus checks. Or for another example, McDonald’s using the app provides a “discount”, but not even close compared to the prices they used to have pre-COVID.
20hrs is already over the limit for most states. even in lower cost states 20hrs is way over, as red states likely arnt expanding medicaid to raise the max income for it. i know someone that works only 18hrs/week to stay on medicaid/ Denti-caid, actually less because lunch isnt counted as pay.
i think it should be referred to ACA, obamacare is coined by conservative media to make it a boogeyman so republicans will also vote against it. i dont think people got jealous, schumer+republicans ended the shutdown it already made millions drop out of thier aca plans because thier premiums doubled or quadrupled in cost.
As a leftist, UBI is a concept that both excites and scares me. It is a last ditch effort to save a consumer economy, and further removes people from labor organizing. With price hikes and unethical corporations and governments, a UBI could simply become a way to increase the price of every object and service, while also preventing the one method through which average people have ever genuinely impacted change: the union and strike. How do we unionize around ourself when we are removed from work? It’s a scary concept.
I love the idea of removing the means of survival from meaningless work, and I truly believe that is the direction we need to go if we wish to continue basing our economy off of consumerism and money (which, frankly, I don’t think we need to do), but in order for it work and be anything other than an actual nightmarescape, UBI has to be coupled (in some concrete, irreversible way) with things like price controls, rent controls, and some way for people to functionally unionize as citizens outside of their respective employment.
But all that said, we can’t even get single payer healthcare in the US, so this is more of a “what they should do in Europe” situation, as here in the US the answer to “will we get a UBI” is “go fucking die in a hole, you disgusting poor. But not that hole. That’s my hole.”
what is this removing means of survival?
When the whole world is converted into a factory to produce luxuries for the wealthy, and community is a far-off relic of the past, the laborers will be provided with basic subsistence, just enough to keep them alive and able to work. Or they’ll be replaced with automation. Whichever is cheaper.
dystopian but I think it can be true.
No. Wealthy people don’t feel like they’re winning unless poor people are losing.
That’s just an obstacle, and not an insurmountable one
The rich will probably just try to kill us all before that happens. We should get rid of the wealthy
I think this is way more likely then them giving up a share for ubi.
why do you think culture war propaganda was neccesary to create that divisivness and hate.
I think these wars right now are just cover for not giving justice to the victims of Epstein and his friends. This case is so big, even though we have partial documents, that it literally shocked the world and for diverting people minds from that, they are throwing all of these wars.
yes the wars are purely a distraction.
What do you mean by “get rid of”?
Use context clues or fuck off
… and over the top hostile for absolutely no reason. Have fun playing out murder fantasies and growing old in your parents basement.
I don’t think so.
No UBI proponent has given me a convincing argument that
inflationgreedy bastards won’t eventually increase prices to the extent that the extra money would be effectively wiped out. Which would be especially bad because people often propose UBI as a replacement for welfare - so those on a benefit get what little spending power they have eliminated, and only those with jobs can absorb the increased costs.Also, governments don’t tend to go around handing out money (well, to those who actually need it) willy-nilly. Most social welfare/workers’ rights gains in the 20th century were because western governments were afraid that the October Revolution might give their citizens ideas. As of now, there’s simply no threat of an alternative to Capitalism.
No UBI proponent has given me a convincing argument that inflation greedy bastards won’t eventually increase prices to the extent that the extra money would be effectively wiped out.
Really? Cuz all the serious discussions about UBI I have seen one of the first things they address is ways to prevent product makers and sellers just jacking up their prices.
Why not do that before UBI?
Some places have been trying to make their price gouging laws more robust already.
UBI isn’t a panacea, but it seems to me that we are going to need creative solutions. It’s not going to solve the issues we face that are fundamentally because there is too big a gap between the wealthy people and poor people. But capitalism is failing us and the center cannot hold.
Right now only wealthy families benefit from UBI that is controlled by oligarchy. They never actually go bankrupt like the rest of us or suffer from housing instability because all of the systems that control the flow of resources and capital reward the in-group. I have lived in Texas for 20+ years and cannot understand why oil and gas money doesn’t fund a sovereign wealth fund that would support the lowest income folks in an unpredictable economy. The fact that seasonal/temporary work exists but UBI doesn’t is stupid. Poor people are basically trapped.
