There is both skilled and unskilled people in blue and white collar jobs.
Just tell a master mason that his job is “unskilled”. You may keep the black eye for free…
“Skilled” and “unskilled” work? I reject this Americanism.
It is the basis of visas around the world, bad as that may be.
Eh, more or less skilled, sure, but “unskilled” is never accurate. I say this as someone who’s very clumsy by nature and takes forever to do manual tasks that others won’t struggle as much with. I know that there’s a lower floor of skill (the floor I inhabit 😭), so they can’t just be doing “unskilled” tasks.
Oh yeah. Fair enough. I was thinking more “skilled”.
Work is work, no need for distinction. Capitalists don’t work, that’s all you need.
No war but class war.
There is no such thing as unskilled labor.
This is a very optimistic but ultimately baseless “feel-good” take.
I don’t think we should discount the importance of unskilled labor, or even its difficulty, but unskilled labor most certainly does exist.
people always say this, but I don’t recall anybody proposing a better term
I agree with your statement, but I recognize that the term “unskilled” in this context means something different than you and I would like it to
It takes zero skill to pickup a box and move it. skill
Skill
[skil]/ skɪl /
noun
the ability, coming from one’s knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well.
Carpentry was one of his many skills.
Synonyms:facility, proficiencyAntonyms:inability
competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity.
The dancers performed with skill.
Synonyms:cleverness, deftness
a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience.
the skill of cabinetmaking.
Origin and history of skill
skill(n.)
early 12c., “knowledge, divine wisdom;” late 12c., “power of discernment, sound judgment; that which is reasonable,” senses all now obsolete, from Old Norse skil “distinction, ability to make out, discernment, adjustment,” which is related to skilja (v.) “to separate; discern, understand,” from Proto-Germanic *skaljo- “divide, separate” (source also of Swedish skäl “reason,” Danish skjel “a separation, boundary, limit,” Middle Low German schillen “to differ,” Middle Low German, Middle Dutch schele “separation, discrimination;” from PIE root *skel- (1) “to cut”).
Haha, bunch of people got their knkckers in a twist cause they don’t like being schooled on how wrong they are.
As someone who’s had multiple surgeries that forced them to re-learn how to use their own muscles, anything that requires purposeful muscle movement is a skill. And even if it wasn’t, there aren’t any jobs that have you move a box. There are, however, jobs that require you to move a box to a specific known location without breaking the contents of the box, which is a skill.
Sorry, no. If you can train someone how to do the job within an afternoon, it’s not the kind of “skilled” people are talking about. Moving like a healthy human is not a skill. We are built to carry things. Being pedantic about it helps no one.
Just look at the comment I responded to for the definition; if you’re doing an activity well, it’s a skill. You might disagree, but that’s between you and the dictionary. The rest of us will be here working on making sure people are paid well regardless of whether or not you think their work isn’t “skilled” enough.
I have absolutly seen people who are unskilled at picking up and moving boxes. It’s not a task with a high skill floor, or a particularily high skill ceiling, but it exists.
And somehow my company has been uniformly capable of identifying and hiring these people.
Eh. There are definitely jobs that you can grab random guys off the street for and they will be okay enough at them to get started right away or will be able to be trained to do them in an afternoon. Think of any time you’ve done a volunteering project - you don’t get any specialized training to do this type of work, but you can go ahead and get started with maybe like a short explanation of how it works. Sure you won’t be as good as a pro, but you could get up to speed quite quickly if it was all you were doing. These types of jobs are becoming less and less common as they get automated, but they do still exist. That is what is meant by “unskilled labor.” It’s not a dig at the people who do these types of jobs, but rather that you don’t need specialized training to do them.
Just because the skills required for a job are very common doesn’t mean the labor is unskilled. That is a myth made up by the 1% to divide the working class and pit us against each other.
You’re trying to make a weird semantic distinction that doesn’t really accomplish anything. Unskilled labor doesn’t mean undignified or unworthy of respect, it is just a description of a certain kind of work with essentially no barrier to entry. Again it’s very uncommon in modern advanced economies but in the past (and today in some very poor areas) you’d have people whose job it was to push millstones around in a circle all day, a job that is also done by literal donkeys. That is not skilled labor.
Unskilled labor has nothing to do with skills. It’s a euphemism for easily replaceable workers.
Of course it should. I feel it’s kinda obvious. Do you think it shouldn’t?
You’re not giving a context.
Yes blue collar work is skilled in that not everyone can do it and some people do it better than others. You as someone not in that field can’t just take it up and be competent. Really there’s only general labor that’s not skilled anymore.
If the context is special work visas, supposedly these are skills that can’t be found domestically. So no, blue collar jobs and most white collar jobs are not skilled. …. And there’s a good argument that the distinction is companies not wanting to pay more
I am a tradesman
I also have a bachelor of science degree
What I do is most definitely skilled labour
The bullshit, classist crap about what is and is not skilled labour is pathetic
I can promise that when the chips are down, the most useless people are the ones who sneer at those of us with calloused hands
I respect the fuck out of anyone who does jobs I can’t or don’t want to. The guy who empties septic tanks has my genuine respect and appreciation because if not for him I would have a really shitty job on my hands. Hopefully the humor doesn’t undercut the sincerity of my comment.
how is it classist?
People who work with their hands are almost always considered ‘lower class.’
A paralegal who earns $50,000 a year is considered to be most prestigious than a plumber who earns three times as much.
It doesn’t matter that the plumber has a greater range of knowledge than the paralegal, only that they come home with dirty hands.
What paralegal shit in your cheerios?
Dude, come on, don’t be disingenuous, this is well established.
The trades have been denigrated for decades, despite many of them being well-paying, secure jobs that require significant re-training and re-certification on a regular basis.
Well you seem to be acting disingenuous yourself by denigrating other professions you dont respect in turn. How is that fair? They’re already paid far less (and probably far less than they’re worth) you think it’s justifiable to say that they’re suddenly tantamount to the “unskilled” labor you feel trades are left under.
You dont elevate yourself by punching down, you just make more room below you.
found the paralegal
you think it’s justifiable to say that they’re suddenly tantamount to the “unskilled” labor you feel trades are left under.
I feel you’ve grossly misunderstood their arguments.
That’s probably exclusively American term. I couldn’t ever imagine calling a tradesman an “unskilled” labourer. You’ll get a quick nosejob that way.
I go by…
- Skilled labour: Jobs that require education or extensive training to be able to perform
- Semi-skilled labour: Jobs that require minimal or no education, but require some extent of on-the-job training to be able to perform the basic duties.
- Unskilled labour: Jobs that require no education, and can be effectively performed on day one by a new hire.
I’m sure there’s also a “highly skilled labour” category that encompasses jobs that require extensive education, training, and practice, but I’m not really sure where to draw the line.
can be effectively performed on day one by a new hire.
If such a job exists, I’ve never seen it. A first day worker on ANY job won’t be as efficient as someone with experience. Even a ditch digger has skills.
no shit they won’t be as efficient. but they can do it without requiring weeks or months or years of training
edit: to clarify, I also don’t think that there’s a job where somebody can effectively perform it on day one (unless they have already learned the skills in a previous job in a similar role). but I do think that there are jobs where somebody can become a net contributor within a few days. like vacuuming. I used to have a job vacuuming apartment buildings and doing general cleaning maintenance. two days of training and I was good to go for all the buildings in the roster
In the first part of your edit, you explain why there’s no such thing as unskilled labor.
I think the confusion here is that you are saying “unskilled” when you mean " skills that have been picked up without education", or “skills I assume can be picked up quickly”
Find me someone from an ancient civilization and see how well they vacuum without any training.
nah, I just think it’s dumb to say “but everything is a skill” like it’s some gotcha
sweeping is a skill you can learn very quickly. it’s not complicated. you don’t need special training to do it. the reason you can’t be effective on day one is that you need to learn the processes of the job, not because you need to learn the skill. you can be effective at sweeping, but not effective in your role because somebody is expending time and effort to teach you the processes. not because you have to learn how to sweep.
The purpose is not “some gotcha”. The purpose is that, by calling it unskilled labor you devalue both the role and the person doing it. Then it’s easy to justify not paying them a living wage, not respecting them, and treating them as lesser.
Plus, you literally said “sweeping is a skill”. So it’s not unskilled. It’s a quickly learned skill. Let’s not be both demeaning and inaccurate.
White collar and blue collar is orthogonal to skill. Their are jobs in both categories that a monkey could do, and other jobs that take years and years of skill development to do well.
By “blue collar work” do you mean that done by mechanics, carpenters, masons, plumbers, electricians, machinists, tool operators and repairmen? because yes I do.
That implies there is unskilled labour. What jobs require no skills to perform? Except manglement.
Digging up a septic system requires no skill.
Moving pabel forms for concrete requires no skill - the GC or foreman will direct how it’s done.
Lots and lots of stuff requires no particular skill.
I’ve had a few jobs when I was young that required no skill.
I call bull.
It takes skill to do anything. Mopping a floor, washing a window, making a bed, or bagging groceries.
Newspaper round, washing dishes in a pub kitchen and working in a plant nursery putting seeds into soil in their trays.
None of them required any training, anyone could have done those jobs.
Training=/= skill
I washed dishes. You can do a bad job or a good job.
Same with all the others.
“unskilled” directly refers to the amount of training a job requires to do it. Anyone can wash dishes or do a newspaper round without any training. It’s not a skill to wash a plate properly.
Anyone can do an unskilled job and be efficient at it in a short space of time.
I agree with your passion, but I think you’re digging too deep into the semantics. Sure, after time, we can expect someone to become more skilled at an “unskilled” position, but that’s bending the definition of the term.
This man needs an appendectomy.
This canyon needs a 200m bridge that will be able to hold 4 lanes of traffic.
This floor needs mopped.
98% of people would have no idea where to even start on the first two jobs. THAT is the difference between skilled and unskilled.
It’s more a definition of how much training is required.
It already is considered skilled labor.
If you’ve got a blue collar, you are much more valuable to society than if you have a white one. This is being proven in a very real way lately with how white collar work is literally an easier problem to automate.
Would you (personally) trust me to build a bridge you cross everyday on your way to work, as someone who has never built anything before (other than software)?
